Free Yu-Gi-Oh! Poster from PETA

[Fenris]

Whilst searching for YGO stuff I found this:

Poster (http://www.peta2.com/outthere/o-yugicard.asp)

It's in .pdf so you can print it off easily. Good one for the kids and those of us slightly older who enjoy the Anime! You can also get stickers and what-not from PETA. I had a quick look and it seems they send outside the US, but don't hold me to it!

[flutterbybutterfly]

Hi,

I don't know what the YGO stuff is like, but I've had a v. bad exp with PETA.

My ten year old filled in an online form to get free comics, unbeknown to me. When they arrived I saw the envelope and intercepted it as I want to know what post my ten year old is receiving.

I was outraged when I saw the comics which are aimed apparently at my son's age group. If he had taken one look at the graphic and unnecessary content he would have wanted been v. v. upset. (They also probably would have turned him veggie which of course is the aim, but this underhand way of exposing youngsters to their views is wrong).

The comics showed (in cartoon format) horrid imagery of animals suffering. We are meat eaters in my house and I respect everyones right to choose, but, before my kids turn 18 then they eat what we eat - a healthy, balanced diet. Once they decide their own diet they can make their own choices.

I was incensed that the organisation was allowed to to send out such material to 10 year olds without parental consent. I also can't believe that they are legally allowed to not to mention the moral implications.

Anyway, as I said, I haven't seen the YGO stuff. It might be harmless. On the otherhand just watch out what you get.

[Fenris]

Sorry to hear that you dislike PETA, but they are a veggie organisation. I don't wish to be rude, but don't you think you should monitor your kids while online? If they're ordering things willy-nilly from decent sites like PETA they could just as easliy be viewing other, unpleasent things.

At the end of the day your chiled lied to get the information in the first place as to order anything from PETA you have to check a box to say that you're over 13. If he's only 10 then I think the responsibility is with you and not PETA.

The poster is simply a picture of Yugi Yami with a caption saying "Cruelty to Animals is no game" and some info on how to report such a crime to a parent or teacher. I think that's something that ALL children should learn! There's also a short interview with Kazuki Takahashi (Yu-Gi-Oh! creator) about what he thinks of animal cruelty. I can't possibly see how this could offend any child unless they're quite happy to see animals suffer!

[flutterbybutterfly]

Thanks "Fenris" but I think you have missed my point and turned this into a personal attack.

1. Thanks for your concern but yes my son is monitored on the internet. We have agreed sites which we check, blockers, timed sessions and parental controls... On this occassion this "decent" site slipped through the net.

2. He did not lie as you so crudely put it - I have checked the PETA kids site and it doesnt ask if you are over 13 or not - so get your facts right. Infact, many kids subscription websites get you to enter parents email as well for verification - suprisingly (not) PETA does not.

3. To quote Fenris "I can't possibly see how this could offend any child unless they're quite happy to see animals suffer!" - as I said I had not looked at the specific poster (infact your link would not load properly) so get off your high-horse. All I said was use PETA with caution. We are animal lovers in this household, we just choose to eat how god intended us to.

Just an added point. The literature that was sent through for my son was designed to shock and convert to veggie. It was extremely irresponsible not only for content but also for lacking any sort of advice with regards to drastic changing of a diet. You cannot just cut out meat and expect to have a balanced diet and a healthy child. There is a lot more you need to do to ensure you have a nutritious balances diet otherwise the world would end up with a lot of lanky, pale, unhealthy kids. So come PETA wise up and be responsible.

[Fenris]

The PETA site does ask that you check a box to ensure the person is over 13, I did check.

For your information you don't need meat to live. I have a very good friend who's 27 and has never eaten meat in her life; she's very healthy and is only pale beacuse she lives in the UK and like us all rarely sees the sun!

As I said before, it's up to you to check that your kids aren't getting stuff they shouldn't. If you plonk your child in front of a computer and leave it to it's own devices that's your problem! You can't blame a website for that child visiting it when it's not supposed to. I wasn't making a personal attack on you, just pointing out that PETA is a decent organisation and you're making them out to be some kind of animal Al Kida! If someone requests information from them then they provide it. Your child should have known what he was looking at while he was there. PETA is not there to pander, they're there to tell people what really happens to the animals who end up on your dinner-plate. If this upsets tender sensibilities then don't request the information! It's as simple as that.

Most people on this site can make up their own mind about something when they visit the linked website. If you'd've visited the site via the link above (yes, I note you say it didn't work for you, but it works fine for me and the other people who've thanked me for it; perhaps you need to update your browser?) then you would have seen what was on offer and not gotten on your "high horse" and felt the need to belittle PETA and the marvelous work they do!

There was no need to wreck an otherwise decent post of a freebie. Thankfully there are many more members who appreciate the efforts of others and don't come in on a post to slander the website offering said freebie.

[loopylass]

Thanks for this:D
I have just sent them an e-mail
It did say if you wanted to get some stickers and a poster then e mail them so i did

We are all animal lovers in our home so anything that helps put the message across to children is a good thing

Thanks again

[flutterbybutterfly]

The PETA site does ask that you check a box to ensure the person is over 13, I did check.

For your information you don't need meat to live. I have a very good friend who's 27 and has never eaten meat in her life; she's very healthy and is only pale beacuse she lives in the UK and like us all rarely sees the sun!

As I said before, it's up to you to check that your kids aren't getting stuff they shouldn't. If you plonk your child in front of a computer and leave it to it's own devices that's your problem! You can't blame a website for that child visiting it when it's not supposed to. I wasn't making a personal attack on you, just pointing out that PETA is a decent organisation and you're making them out to be some kind of animal Al Kida! If someone requests information from them then they provide it. Your child should have known what he was looking at while he was there. PETA is not there to pander, they're there to tell people what really happens to the animals who end up on your dinner-plate. If this upsets tender sensibilities then don't request the information! It's as simple as that.

Most people on this site can make up their own mind about something when they visit the linked website. If you'd've visited the site via the link above (yes, I note you say it didn't work for you, but it works fine for me and the other people who've thanked me for it; perhaps you need to update your browser?) then you would have seen what was on offer and not gotten on your "high horse" and felt the need to belittle PETA and the marvelous work they do!

There was no need to wreck an otherwise decent post of a freebie. Thankfully there are many more members who appreciate the efforts of others and don't come in on a post to slander the website offering said freebie.

1. Obviously you were looking at a different PETA kids link than me as I have just double checked - again, it only asked dob.

2. I did not say you need meat to live. I said that if PETA encourage easily influenced kids and teenagers to turn veggie then they also have an obligation to inform them about adapting (especially a sudden change) a diet to make allowances for not eating meat i.e. you need to compensate with pulses or lentils to replace iron and other nutrients found in meat and not vegetables alone. The literature I read said nothing about that only scared kids off meat. Personally, I find that irresponsible. I am sure your friend has a healthy balanced diet as do my veggie friends.

3. Please don't tell me how to raise my kids. I am a responsible parent and occassionally kids do manage the odd misdemeanor. Although overall parental responsibility, I feel that there is a shared responsibility between parents are suitable websites to verify child access with parents. As I have said previously, most sites he has signed up to do just that. And don't assume my child is “plonked” infront of the computer.

4. Yes, most people on the site can make up their own mind. However I think it is justified to share a bad experience with someone, they don't have to take any notice of it if they don't want to. It is fair that someone is fully aware before signing up to anything like this, they might agree with the YGO poster (incidentally I never said I didn't) but, might be a bit shocked if they sign-up them/or child to receive further publications only to receive the stuff I did expecting it all to be like your poster.

5. I never slandered the website or "said freebie" (as I have clearly pointed out numerous times I was making no comment on the poster itself). I have only shared an experience, this does not constitute slander (I think you mean libel by the way).

6. I think that we could end up going round and round in circles with this one if we carried on. We obviously fundamentally do not agree on various issues so lets just leave it there and not take it personally. There was no intention to “wreck” your thread and I don't believe that I have done so. As you pointed out, anyone can look at the poster and make up their own mind.

Just a final note, we are an animal loving family with a dog and goldfish. Please don't infer that because I don't agree with you on each point, that I am not teaching my child to love and respect animals.

[freebie_junkie]

Thanks for this:D
I have just sent them an e-mail
It did say if you wanted to get some stickers and a poster then e mail them so i did

We are all animal lovers in our home so anything that helps put the message across to children is a good thing

Thanks again

im an animal lover too and not one of them supposed ones who will eat a burger with one hand whilst petting teh family dog (you know that dogs are a delicacy in other countries rite?!)

my kiddies are gona have a "healthy, balanced vegetarian diet" and learn that eating a cow is just the same as eating teh family dog!

i dont think people should be allowed to eat animals if they only get them in nuggets or nice, clean slices. my dad grew up ona farm and started ringing chickens at 6, i respect the fact that he chooses to eat meat coz he knows weher it comes from and is prepared to kill and skin it. i think 10 is a perfect age to start finding out where mr macdonalds gets his happy meals.

[freebie_junkie]

We are animal lovers in this household, we just choose to eat how god intended us to.


thats only an argument if you belive in god. what a bizzare thing to post!

[Fenris]

1. Obviously you were looking at a different PETA kids link than me as I have just double checked - again, it only asked dob.

2. I did not say you need meat to live. I said that if PETA encourage easily influenced kids and teenagers to turn veggie then they also have an obligation to inform them about adapting (especially a sudden change) a diet to make allowances for not eating meat i.e. you need to compensate with pulses or lentils to replace iron and other nutrients found in meat and not vegetables alone. The literature I read said nothing about that only scared kids off meat. Personally, I find that irresponsible. I am sure your friend has a healthy balanced diet as do my veggie friends.

3. Please don't tell me how to raise my kids. I am a responsible parent and occassionally kids do manage the odd misdemeanor. Although overall parental responsibility, I feel that there is a shared responsibility between parents are suitable websites to verify child access with parents. As I have said previously, most sites he has signed up to do just that. And don't assume my child is “plonked” infront of the computer.

4. Yes, most people on the site can make up their own mind. However I think it is justified to share a bad experience with someone, they don't have to take any notice of it if they don't want to. It is fair that someone is fully aware before signing up to anything like this, they might agree with the YGO poster (incidentally I never said I didn't) but, might be a bit shocked if they sign-up them/or child to receive further publications only to receive the stuff I did expecting it all to be like your poster.

5. I never slandered the website or "said freebie" (as I have clearly pointed out numerous times I was making no comment on the poster itself). I have only shared an experience, this does not constitute slander (I think you mean libel by the way).

6. I think that we could end up going round and round in circles with this one if we carried on. We obviously fundamentally do not agree on various issues so lets just leave it there and not take it personally. There was no intention to “wreck” your thread and I don't believe that I have done so. As you pointed out, anyone can look at the poster and make up their own mind.

Just a final note, we are an animal loving family with a dog and goldfish. Please don't infer that because I don't agree with you on each point, that I am not teaching my child to love and respect animals.

To answer you on a point-by-point basis:

1) If you click the link in my original post and scroll down the page to the enquiry form, you'll clearly see that it asks that you check the box to confirm you're over 13. It's clear as day.

2) PETA, or any other organistaion, do not have an obligatory responsibility to do any such thing. In fact, some might argue that to do so would be to undermine the parent. As freebie_junkie says, she's happy to tell her children about what happens to animals before they're presented to a child in a Happy Meal. If you chose not to do so then that's up to you. But kids can't be kept in the dark forever. Obviously your child wants to know what's going on as he wouldn't have visited PETA in the first place. Either that or he was just after a free sticker. Once he's been informed of the veggie way of life, it's up to you to sit down and talk to him about it, take him to the doctor and get an opinion. PETA can't do these things for you. The only person responsible for your son is you.

3) I'm in no way telling you how to bring up your children. I was mearly stating that you obviously hadn't checked PETA's site to be sure that it was something you were happy with him viewing. As I said before, PETA are not an organisation telling children lies, they're there to tell children and adults alike what happens in the real world. Did you know that most inner city school children think that meat magicly apears on Sainsbury's shelves? Do you really want your child to grow up thinking this? Or is it just that you feel so bad about the way animals are treated by the big companies that you simply can't admit to your child that his meat is cruely butchered?

4) As I said before, anyone visiting PETA's website will know why they're there. That's one of the reasons I put PETA in the title of this thread, so that those who don't want to go there don't have to. If you read the website you know what kind of litarature you'll receive if you request more information.

5) I know what I wrote. Since this thread may be closed at any time, for any reason, it's considered slander; it's only libel if it's permanant.

As you say, we'll never agree with eachother. I just feel that you've given PETA a bad name when they didn't deserve it.

[maccyroo]

Why bring religion into things, it only antagonises situations and is totally unnecessary.

Of course approach PETA with caution, they exist to save animals from the misdeeds of humans. What do you expect to see in their publications, they are after all trying to stop you eating dead animals.

[johnrhodes]

thats only an argument if you belive in god. what a bizzare thing to post!
I think another way of reading this is 'how nature intended'. After all our bodies have been fine-tuned over thousands of genrations to eat meat. From the teeth in our jaws to the enzymes in our digestive system human beings are designed to eat meat.
I think processed meats should be completely outlawed and I am sure eventually they will. PETA have a lot of good points to make, but they do come accross and slightly preachy in my opinion. At least they are not terrorists like some animal rights groups

[Edna_Bucket]

I wouldn't want to get involved in the debate going on previously one way or the other, but all I would say is that there seem to be many people who feel that PETA veer towards the extremist edge of the anti-vivisection movement, and use these freebies simply as a tactic to get their "other" material out.

If you want to see what I mean simply enter the words "PETA extremist" into Google and see what you get out!

I'll leave it there - but I would be very worried indeed about any child of mine being on their mailing list.

[seanparkin]

I think John hit the nail right on the head with that one.

Humans evolved the way they did in order to be able to eat meat (as well as vegetables), hence our sharp pointy front teeth as well as our flat grinding side teeth. We are no different than any other omnivorous species - are you going to tell lions that they aren't allowed to kill and eat springbok anymore, and have to live off grass? Or that bears are no longer allowed to hunt anything that moves, and they have to live purely off berries?

Our need to hunt and eat is exactly the same as any other species. Humans are not special, we cannot go against our natural dietary requirements.

Sure, I agree a lot of abuse does happen which causes these animals stress in the shortened lives they have, but surely no more so than being chased across the sarengeti by a raging lioness.

I eat meat, but only organic meat from good sources. As more for my health than the animals well being however. I wont ever even touch processed meat, I'd rather eat my own arm than go to macdonalds.

[flutterbybutterfly]

In repsonse to Fenris:-

Not going to keep on in circles as I have much better things to do with my time. But finally, clear as day, the site I looked at didn't have the 13+yrs check box. Your link may do but I never argued about that.

Both my children are well aware of how their food reached their plates and are quite comfortable with it, thanks.

Any veggie organisation should have a moral responsibility to point out the virtues of a balanced diet i.e. if not eating meat then how to compensate for the loss of nutrients found in meat and not veg. Instead of just using shock tactics. Children/Teenagers are easily influenced are should be pointed in the right direction whether meat eater or veggie diet. I do not disagree with people choosing a veggie way of life.

I do hope that everyone saying to be an animal lover you have to be vegetarian also only uses alternative therapies/medicines and not medical drugs, wears only synthetic shoes, doesn't wear make-up (there are no guarantees), oh and there's those veggie that eat fish (why are fish different than the cute fluffy animals), oh and why is it ok to drink milk - isn't it a cruel life for a cow? eggs - chicken, what do you feed your pets...the list goes on.

I don't disagree with PETA as a whole, I have looked at their histology and there are some good things they have done. I do however strongly object to protesting outside a school trying to scare kids off drinking milk and showing them graphic images and more which I am not going to list as to avoid a further can of worms.

Oh and Fenris, check your dictionnary for a definition of libel and slander. Slander is spoken word and libel is written. Also if you are expressing personal views based upon factual experience it can be neither.

Thanks for those of you who support what I said with regards to what our body intended us to eat. I agree using the terms "god" was a bit ott but trying to get my point across nonetheless. Either way you look at it god or evolution - comes to the same conclusion.

I agree with Sean about the type of meat eaten. We are the same in our house, free range chicken, eggs etc... even though it costs more it must be better for self and animal. Tried looking for the RSPCA chicken in Tesco that Full on Food BBC mentionned ages ago but can't find it any any local supermarket.

So, goodbye Fenris, as I won't be wasting anymore of my time. Anyone who has nothing better to do than to vent anti-meat eater points of view (by the way I have no anti-veggie feelings) feel free to carry on posting.... as I feel this is no longer anything to do with my comments but just a soap-box for you now, and as you obviously like to have the last word on this here you go...

[Fenris]

So, goodbye Fenris, as I won't be wasting anymore of my time. Anyone who has nothing better to do than to vent anti-meat eater points of view (by the way I have no anti-veggie feelings) feel free to carry on posting.... as I feel this is no longer anything to do with my comments but just a soap-box for you now, and as you obviously like to have the last word on this here you go...

Bye then.

Incidently, I wasn't venting "anti-meat eater points of view". I never once said anything against meat eaters. I'm against the way in which animals are force-fed, caged, mis-treated, maimed, and eventualy brutally dispached all in the name of "mass-production".

I could argue the finer points of slander and libel all day, but as you won't accept anything anyone else has to say, there's little point!

And, since you won't be reading this because it's a waste of your time, none of the above matters! :D :T :T

For everyone else who looked at this thread for a freebie, it's still there! ;)

[mr bojangles]

The butterfly is right u know. Libel and Slander, check em out - in every dictionnery (oops)

Did sound quite anti-anyone who didn't agree with u mate, and it sounds like u who doesn't accept anything anyone else has to say.

I wouldnt take it all to heart as everyone should be able to say wot they wanna say.

[Fenris]

The butterfly is right u know. Libel and Slander, check em out - in every dictionnery (oops)

Did sound quite anti-anyone who didn't agree with u mate, and it sounds like u who doesn't accept anything anyone else has to say.

I wouldnt take it all to heart as everyone should be able to say wot they wanna say.

I take your point mate. I wasn't trying to sound anti-everyone, just wanted to make the point that PETA are a decent organisation and butterfly was making out they were some kind of terrorists! And I do accept what people say, so long as it's valid. You can't just go making accusations against a company because they sent out info which was requested; if you could, every company on the planet would be sued! I was trying to make the point that people can't blame the world for their own kids actions. :rolleyes: Parents these days seem to think that responsibility lies with everyone except themselves...

As for the slander/libel debate, I'm well aware of the differences. However, libel only applies to publications which are permanant. Check it out! ;)

[mr bojangles]

As for the slander/libel debate, I'm well aware of the differences. However, libel only applies to publications which are permanant. Check it out! ;)

You might like to point out to Martin Lewis :money: then if you think you are right as that means he is wrong!

Look at the top of the page "Posts are not monitored so please: Report Spam, Offensive, Racist or Libellous Posts/PMs or other illegal content"

[Fenris]

You know what, I just can't be bothered so shall we call it defamation and leave it at that then?

[freebie_junkie]

each to their own, but personally id rather eat my own ar*e than animals which have been cramped toghter, force fed hormones and slop, then captive bolt pistolled thru teh head before being butchered, or electocuted before having their heads lopped off, anyone who can- i dont think that they could call themselves an 'animal lover'!

the difference between other meat-eating animals and humans is taht we are clever enough to go against our primal urges, i.e. we use dont just use sex as a baby-making method do we? and we are clever enough not to have to eat meat and still remain healthy. if youre comparing your meat-eating to a lioness, then chase after your cow, bite into its hide and eat it raw there and then cant- can you!? so its not exactly the same is it? in fact, i can eat all my veggies raw and feel fine but you could kill yourself with raw meat, odd that isnt it?!!

i havent eaten meat for ten years nor belived in god for 22 years, and im perfectly healthy and a very trim size ten (unlike many obese people who eat meat!) your arguments wont add up till you can hunt down with just your nails and teeth and eat a raw animal there and then.

p.s. id go into some other medical facts about why we arent designed to eat meat but after all your goin on about slander/libel arguments i cant be bothered.

[johnrhodes]

each to their own, but personally id rather eat my own ar*e than animals which have been cramped toghter, force fed hormones and slop, then captive bolt pistolled thru teh head before being butchered, or electocuted before having their heads lopped off, anyone who can- i dont think that they could call themselves an 'animal lover'!

the difference between other meat-eating animals and humans is taht we are clever enough to go against our primal urges, i.e. we use dont just use sex as
a baby-making method do we? and we are clever enough not to have to eat meat and still remain healthy. if youre comparing your meat-eating to a lioness, then chase after your cow, bite into its hide and eat it raw there and then cant- can you!? so its not exactly the same is it? in fact, i can eat all my veggies raw and feel fine but you could kill yourself with raw meat, odd that isnt it?!!

i havent eaten meat for ten years nor belived in god for 22 years, and im perfectly healthy and a very trim size ten (unlike many obese people who eat meat!) your arguments wont add up till you can hunt down with just your nails and teeth and eat a raw animal there and then.

p.s. id go into some other medical facts about why we arent designed to eat meat but after all your goin on about slander/libel arguments i cant be bothered.
first of all- there are no 'medical facts' why we shouldnt eat meat. not even the old adage that eating red meat causes bowel cancer because i have studied all the relevant scientific literature as part if my job. (i did a pubmed search with medline)
by the way, there are plenty of 'medical facts' why we should eat meat- none more so than it is precisely what our bodies have been 'designed' for. just examine the enzymes in our digestive system.
eating meat doesnt cause obesity- eating meat of any kind is the singular more healthy gain of protein in the natural world, far more healthy than nuts or pulses.
to equate our urge to eat meat with our urge to copulate shows a disticnt lack of understanding. The urge to copulate is all encompassing- it dominates the existence of every man on the planet. the urge to eat meat is similarly apparent- do not argue with thousands of years worth of evolution- that is if u believe in evolution. im sure most people at PETA havent gpt the first idea about real science

[freebie_junkie]

go ahead, try to eat your cow alive with no tools or weapons, see how far you get.

[Edna_Bucket]

Can I suggest to the Mods that this thread is now best moved to "Discussion Time"? It now seems to have little relation to the original freebie title.

[johnrhodes]

go ahead, try to eat your cow alive with no tools or weapons, see how far you get.
you point is what? that we are designed to be herbivores?
Have you ever studied the anatomy of a herbivorous animal? Thought not

[freebie_junkie]

johnrodes, i can just see you now with your handbag held up against your chest. how do you know what i have and havent studied?

[johnrhodes]

johnrodes, i can just see you now with your handbag held up against your chest. how do you know what i have and havent studied?
hahahahaha
I am just assuming. I think if u had studied anatomy or physiology it would be completely obvious that humans are fine-tuned to eat meat.

[freebie_junkie]

if you assume you make an !!! out of you and me, well actually not me, just you.

[Fenris]

I know I really should just let this alone, but I can't help but mention the fact that humans really aren't evolved to eat meat in the same way as our close relatives apes are. As everyone who's ever watched TV will know, humans share 98% of DNA with chimps. Other than the fact that we walk upright, can talk human and can build things, there's very little that sperates us...other than the fact that chimps are very adpet at hunting. Have you ever seen it? It's not nice. Very effective, but also very disturbing to witness. I'd hate to be a cameraman filing that type of hunt.

The reason they're so good at it is because chimps have evolved long arms and legs with which to swing through trees after their monkey prey. They also have very long canine teeth.

Ever wonder why humans don't hunt like that? Because humans managed to evlove beyond the need to do what chimps do. Humans developed tools with which to hunt. Later, humans developed tools with which to cultivate the land. There are humans who haven't eaten meat for generations and they're no worse off for it. Ever wonder why we no longer have long canine teeth? Because humans have developed beyond the need to kill and eat raw flesh.

Humans will probably always be omniverous because it's what we're brought up with. But this doesn't in any way mean that meat HAS to be included in the diet. It's no longer required by our bodies because, over the course of the few millennia that humans have roamed the earth, there have been significant environmental and social changes in human behaviour. If humans were to suddenly be forced back into a carniverous diet, they'd die out almost instantly. You can't live without vegetables and fruits. But if meat were no longer available humans would carry on living becaue we've evolved such a sophisticated system which breaks down and uses vegetable matter far more effectivly than it ever could break down animal proteins.

I'm not saying that eating meat is a bad thing; it's natural. I'm just saying that the argument of evolution is far more complex than "Look at that digestive tract; that's one made for meat!"

[Fiona11]

Click on Johnrhodes name and read all his threads. Everyone is abusive or unpleasant. Don't forget to report such abuse!

[Fenris]

Oh yes, so I see. What a gentleman!

[Edna_Bucket]

Click on Johnrhodes name and read all his threads. Everyone is abusive or unpleasant. Don't forget to report such abuse!

I see. To re-phrase an old saying:

"all Rhodes lead to a moan" :D :D

[Fiona11]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[johnrhodes]

I know I really should just let this alone, but I can't help but mention the fact that humans really aren't evolved to eat meat in the same way as our close relatives apes are. As everyone who's ever watched TV will know, humans share 98% of DNA with chimps. Other than the fact that we walk upright, can talk human and can build things, there's very little that sperates us...other than the fact that chimps are very adpet at hunting. Have you ever seen it? It's not nice. Very effective, but also very disturbing to witness. I'd hate to be a cameraman filing that type of hunt.

The reason they're so good at it is because chimps have evolved long arms and legs with which to swing through trees after their monkey prey. They also have very long canine teeth.

Ever wonder why humans don't hunt like that? Because humans managed to evlove beyond the need to do what chimps do. Humans developed tools with which to hunt. Later, humans developed tools with which to cultivate the land. There are humans who haven't eaten meat for generations and they're no worse off for it. Ever wonder why we no longer have long canine teeth? Because humans have developed beyond the need to kill and eat raw flesh.

Humans will probably always be omniverous because it's what we're brought up with. But this doesn't in any way mean that meat HAS to be included in the diet. It's no longer required by our bodies because, over the course of the few millennia that humans have roamed the earth, there have been significant environmental and social changes in human behaviour. If humans were to suddenly be forced back into a carniverous diet, they'd die out almost instantly. You can't live without vegetables and fruits. But if meat were no longer available humans would carry on living becaue we've evolved such a sophisticated system which breaks down and uses vegetable matter far more effectivly than it ever could break down animal proteins.

I'm not saying that eating meat is a bad thing; it's natural. I'm just saying that the argument of evolution is far more complex than "Look at that digestive tract; that's one made for meat!"

Fenris, some good points made. This one is always goint to divide opinion and dont think I'm trying to be rude or provocative. This is a debate that I actually enjoy. I would like to comment on a couple of things 1. chimps eat meat only in times of stress-99% of the time they eat fruits. 2. chimps dont have long arms and legs to chase prey through trees 3. the old figure of 98% similarity was banded around decades before the human genome project and isnt accurate 4. I'm intrigued to know who the 'humans who havent eaten meat for generations' are? 5. humans have roamed the earth significantly longer than 'a few millennia' according to all current evidence 6. the assertion that we can break down veg better than meat is simply false. we have no where near the extraordinary adaptions of true herbivores. we struggle to digest most complex plant carbs. Again, dont think I'm just being a pr**k, I think this is a debate worth having

[Cumbrian Male]

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Thank you.