DLR Penalty charge - honest mistake

[pippitypip]

Hi all, my first time on this board,

I've been using London public transport for 15 years and despite one occasion where my season ticket was in my other jacket (you know that awful feeling when your stomach plummets - you know EXACTLY where you left it?) lol this time I'm quite incensed.

I honestly thought my ticket ran out yesterday, as in I would need to renew it on the way home for this morning's travel.

I use mainline and then change for the DLR. Showed my monthly season ticket to the guard on the way into my station, went about a normal Monday morning.

So I'm asleep on the DLR and long story short I get woken up to show my ticket - I do and then get told it's not valid past February. Well that woke me up properly - I took a look and said no - 5th April - see. Anyways I really thought yesterday was the 5th, when it was actually the 6th and got a penalty fare. But the thing is, I honestly thought my ticket was still valid.

Anyhoo - do I have ANY grounds for appeal, or do I have chalk it up to experience and pay the thing? :confused:

You always see people getting told to get off the train and purchase a ticket. I've never fare dodged purposely in my life - Ii thought I had a valid ticket and I'm the one who gets a charge. Just my luck!

I did then purchase a ticket for the fare home in case anyone asks!

Many thanks,
pippitypip.

[copier_guy]

tell them you mates with Ken Livingstone!!

[copier_guy]

Im sorry, I dont live in London but i saw him get away with it in the news!!

Best of luck with it

[surreysaver]

At the end of the day, you didn't have a valid ticket. The reason you didn't have one, unless it is their fault (e.g. no ticket machines working), is not their concern. The penalty fare is for not having a valid ticket. If they can prove it was intentional, then it would be a court summons.

[dacouch]

I believe there is an appeal process

[robt]

Have I missed something - where does 'not valid passed February' come into it?

I know it was an honest mistake - but as you can imagine they must hear the same excuse dozens of times a day, some genuine, some not. You didn't have a valid ticket and thats all that matters at the end of they day, they don't need to care why you didn't have one.

[pippitypip]

Thanks everyone. The ticket guy I think wasn't reading my ticket properly - I didn't see where he got February from either!

I'm just bit ticked off to get a ticket when I've only ever seen people get asked to leave the train when they have no ticket at all, being really blatant about it and they made an example of me where they can see I've had a valid ticket for at least 2009 (I don't keep all my old tickets on me)..

They obviously have some kind of ley way if they usually ask people to leave the train but anyway rant over.

As I thought - the obvious advice is to pay it as the appeal process isn't worth it - thanks all.

[gner_ex]

I use mainline and then change for the DLR. Showed my monthly season ticket to the guard on the way into my station, went about a normal Monday morning.

Which mainline station did you board at? If a ticket inspector there accepted your ticket as valid, then you DO have a case to appeal.

As I thought - the obvious advice is to pay it as the appeal process isn't worth it - thanks all.

Not at all. The appeals process is a genuine process where impartial people consider all information then make a decision.

The fact that you then bought a ticket for that day will go in your favour.

[hewhoisnotintheknow]

write a letter with evidence of payment and all that for the past years or whathave you, might work but you might just have to pay up as you dont have the proper ticket

[FARE-COP]

Which mainline station did you board at? If a ticket inspector there accepted your ticket as valid, then you DO have a case to appeal.

Not at all. The appeals process is a genuine process where impartial people consider all information then make a decision.

The fact that you then bought a ticket for that day will go in your favour.


The reference to a mainline station is an irrelevance in the case of the DLR.

All of the DLR is a controlled ticket area and it does not have an interchange with any mainline station. The DLR has warning signs and ticket facilities at the platform entrances on every station. There is a strict liability offence of being within that area without a valid ticket.

Purchasing a ticket after being reported does not prevent action.

Yes, it is always worth appealing if you feel that you have been hard done by, but I'd always make sure you are truthful and apologetic in your letter if you did not have a valid ticket.

With any Penalty Fare Notice you should also be certain to get your written appeal in within the 21 days that they allow from the date of issue.

[oliverp]

It's worth appealing for the sake of it, but in reality you have no genuine reason for it being withdrawn. The "I thought it was the __ today!" is the most common excuse they receive.

[gner_ex]

The reference to a mainline station is an irrelevance in the case of the DLR.

All of the DLR is a controlled ticket area and it does not have an interchange with any mainline station.
Limehouse, Woolwich Arsenal, Stratford, Lewisham....

My point is that the ticket was accepted as valid - some would see this as entrapment. Barrier staff at a long distance TOC who run from a London terminus with a vaulted roof were recently uncovered to be intentionally accepting invalid tickets at the ends of the platforms, only for on-train staff to excess them. London Travelwatch were involved I believe.

[gner_ex]

Purchasing a ticket after being reported does not prevent action.
No - but it shows that no net loss has occurred - which is the OP was taken to County court rather than Crown would be the prime factor of interest.

[FARE-COP]

Limehouse, Woolwich Arsenal, Stratford, Lewisham....

My point is that the ticket was accepted as valid - some would see this as entrapment. Barrier staff at a long distance TOC who run from a London terminus with a vaulted roof were recently uncovered to be intentionally accepting invalid tickets at the ends of the platforms, only for on-train staff to excess them. London Travelwatch were involved I believe.

In every case except Stratford you leave one rail company's station to enter another.

Lewisham & Limehouse you walk between stations

Woolwich, you pass around the corner to another rail company and the signs are clearly displayed.

At Stratford you go to a specifically designated platform with large signs at the entrance and a validation point for Oysters.

Having been advised that a ticket is not valid negates any mistake made by any other check, but would provide a basis for mitigation that may be considered. It does not validate the ticket.

[FARE-COP]

No - but it shows that no net loss has occurred - which is the OP was taken to County court rather than Crown would be the prime factor of interest.

A loss does not have to occur.

there are three relevant matters worth reading:

1. S5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which refers to 'having not previously paid...'

2. There is case precedent whereby the judgement ruled that 'although the rail company may not have lost any money, at the time of travel the passenger 'had not previously paid his fare'. (The specific case reference escapes me at the moment, but I will look it out and post later.)

3. The strict liability Byelaw requirement to hold a valid ticket when in the controlled ticket area. 'Fail to show' is the offence.

No's 1 & 2 are concerned with 'intent' and all three of these are summary matters that may result in the issue of a Summons

The Magistrates Court is the correct place for the allegation to be laid.

The County Court would be the place to issue proceedings for an unpaid civil debt.

The alleged offences of travelling without a valid rail ticket with intent to avoid a fare or the Byelaw offence of failing to show a ticket on demand are not civil debt matters.

[pippitypip]

Thanks everyone for coming back to this thread, I really appreciate the advice.

I have to admit I'm a bit confused by all the technical law points but I've paid the fine anyway. My stupid mistake, I have to pay for it but you can bet anything you like I'll be double checking the date like crazy next time my season ticket runs out!

My only real niggle is I consider myself really honest and I wasn't trying to evade anything and I see people who really don't care one way or the other get asked to leave the train all the time. But hey, that's life and the end of it really!

Thanks again so much.
pippitypip.

[Altarf]

I overheard an interesting conversation on the DLR recently when a Ticket Inspector was checking tickets.

The passenger opposite me offered their Oyster card to be checked, and the Inspector's machine went "nope". The passenger seemed genuinely bemused and explained that they had come through via the tube and at the tube station they entered they had swiped the card and the barrier opened to let them on, so how could they not have paid.

The Ticket Inspector's response was "Yeh, a lot of the machines don't work properly. Even if the barriers open, if the green light didn't come on you haven't paid", and carried on issuing a penalty fare notice.

I found it was astonishing that a member of staff was so willing to declare that the system was broken, and I would be interested what the response would be if the passenger used that statement in defence to the Penalty Fare Notice.

[pippitypip]

Altarf, I've heard a similar conversation recently too. As I travel mainline I get my ticket all in one, rather than use my oyster, as I'm always worried I'll forget to swipe for the DLR or it won't work properly.

When I do use my Oyster on the tube, I always scrutinise the screen, but that's to check my balance really more than make sure the light has gone green.

To be fair, I'd hate to be a ticket inspector, they must get a lot of grief!

pippitypip

[Altarf]

I'm always worried I'll forget to swipe for the DLR

I loathe the DLR due to the fact that they hide the Oyster swipe machines.

For example at Canary Wharf, why are there no machines on the platform or near the top or bottom of the escalator. They are hidden away by the pillars in the concourse.

Of course it's not like they want you to forget...

[pippitypip]

I know - I'm a Canary Wharfer as well! The amount of people who rush on the DLR and then jump off to swipe is unbelieveable.

In any other walk of life that's almost entrapment! I've also had my Oyster take the money twice, when you're not sure it swiped properly the first time, which is easier to do on the DLR than anywhere else.

Why can't or didn't they install proper ticket barriers like every other tube line? It's crazy but then, the new platforms at Stratford are crazy too. They just recently built them and they don't have proper roofs so everyone gets soaked and windswept. Clever.

[robt]

Ticket barriers require manning in case of an emergency.

[Altarf]

So you can design a train that doesn't need a driver, but you can't design a ticket barrier that doesn't need manning.

I don't believe it.

[robt]

So you can design a train that doesn't need a driver, but you can't design a ticket barrier that doesn't need manning.

I don't believe it.

Ignoring the fact that the Train Captain can drive the train if s/he needs to.

[Altarf]

So where is the "Train Captain" on the DLR?

[robt]

So where is the "Train Captain" on the DLR?

Sorry, a Passenger Service Agent or whatever they wish to be called at the moment. You know, the member of staff on every single train that unstaffed stations don't have.

[Altarf]

You know, the member of staff on every single train that unstaffed stations don't have.

Every train? No train I use has them.

Anyway, getting back to the point, if you can operate a complicated thing like a train safely (on the DLR) with no staff at all on the train (no drivers, train captains, passenger service agents, nobody), then it should be perfectly possible to design barriers that could operate without being manned,

[robt]

Every train? No train I use has them.

Anyway, getting back to the point, if you can operate a complicated thing like a train safely (on the DLR) with no staff at all on the train (no drivers, train captains, passenger service agents, nobody), then it should be perfectly possible to design barriers that could operate without being manned,

I will repeat. Every DLR train has a member of staff onboard. Maybe not on YOUR carriage, but they are onboard that train. They open and close the doors and press what is esentially a 'go' button which takes it to the next station.

If you want a reference, have one: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/modesoftransport/dlr/7126.aspx

A member of staff is on board every train to provide information and assistance.

Or maybe a news article about the ONE time a train accidently ran without staff onboard: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/01/dlr_train_leaves_staff_on_platform/

[pippitypip]

How funny is that story?!

Yes, there are always service operators on the DLR; same people who check the tickets :D

At stations like Stratford though, all other exit points are manned, just not the DLR, so it still amazes me you can't have proper ticket barriers.

pippitypip

[FARE-COP]

Every train? No train I use has them.

Anyway, getting back to the point, if you can operate a complicated thing like a train safely (on the DLR) with no staff at all on the train (no drivers, train captains, passenger service agents, nobody), then it should be perfectly possible to design barriers that could operate without being manned,

Serco-Docklands cannot operate any train in public service on the DLR without a Passenger Service Agent being present on board.

It is not allowed by the empowering legislation and the public could not be conveyed if the PSA was not present to operate the doors and other safety factors.

The DLR is a driver-less system. It is NOT staff-less

[gner_ex]

The Magistrates Court is the correct place for the allegation to be laid.

The County Court would be the place to issue proceedings for an unpaid civil debt.

The alleged offences of travelling without a valid rail ticket with intent to avoid a fare or the Byelaw offence of failing to show a ticket on demand are not civil debt matters.
I'm assuming that like me you work or have worked in the industry.

The TOC actually has either route available to it - county or crown court - though I acknowledge that the majority of actions take place in the crown court.

[gner_ex]

Altarf, I've heard a similar conversation recently too. As I travel mainline I get my ticket all in one, rather than use my oyster, as I'm always worried I'll forget to swipe for the DLR or it won't work properly.

When I do use my Oyster on the tube, I always scrutinise the screen, but that's to check my balance really more than make sure the light has gone green.

To be fair, I'd hate to be a ticket inspector, they must get a lot of grief!

pippitypip
There are a growing number of people in London who purchase paper travel cards (either day or season) for precisely this reason.

The biggest laugh at all is that if you travel at weekends, it is often cheaper to get an all zones travelcard with network railcard discount - ticket is £5, and an annual railcard is £20 (valid for you and your party of upto three other adults and/or four children) - see http://www.railcard.co.uk/network. Granted, if you are making two single journeys on the tube with no bus use oyster will be cheaper (just) but many people make more than just that.

You _can_ get paper day tickets from any tube or national rail ticket office, but seasons (weekly/monthly/yearly) can only be purchased from a national rail station - and you need a photocard (which is free).

[DCodd]

A loss does not have to occur.


The alleged offences of travelling without a valid rail ticket with intent to avoid a fare or the Byelaw offence of failing to show a ticket on demand are not civil debt matters.

But surely that is the point exactly, Intent, As I am sure you are well aware intent is easier to prove in a civil court but has to BE proved in a criminal court! Correct or not??

[FARE-COP]

I'm assuming that like me you work or have worked in the industry.

The TOC actually has either route available to it - county or crown court - though I acknowledge that the majority of actions take place in the crown court.

I work in a railway prosecution office.

Factually these cases are only heard in Magistrates Courts.

Only more serious matters can go to the Crown Court where any case would be heard before a Jury. This does not apply to ticket offences such as being discussed here.

Only very serious matters such as multiple forgeries or similar high value offences where charges might be brought under Forgery & Counterfieting or Theft legislations will go straight to Crown Court

The offences being discussed in this thread are what are known as 'Summary only' offences and are not heard at the Crown Court.

The only time such matters are referred to that 'higher' Court is when a defendant makes an appeal after a Magistrates Court have already ruled.

DCodd,

Yes, it is possible to prosecute an offence in a Magistrates Court without having to prove intent.

If a charge is brought under Section 5.3 of The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 then the prosecution must prove intent for their case to succeed.

However, if a charge is brought under Railways Byelaws, these are what is known as 'strict liability' offences. In these cases it is not necessary for the prosecution to prove intent in order to secure a conviction.

If a Byelaw says you must show a ticket then that is what you must do.
If you do not do so, then you can be found guilty a breach of Byelaw by way of failing to show a ticket.

If facilities are available to get a ticket and a clear sign is displayed saying you must do so, there is a pretty slim chance of avoiding a fine if any traveller does not have an outstandingly good reason for not complying with the rule.

If there is a truly compelling reason for not being able to get a ticket you might offer mitigation that may be accepted by a Court, but I suggest if that were the case the traveller would not be facing prosecution in the first place.

Hope that helps

[woody01]

I fail to see what kind of appeal or redress you want OP.

You were 100% travelling without a valid ticket.

[pippitypip]

woody - I was travelling with what I thought was a valid ticket, with countless past tickets covering months and months prior showing I always I have a ticket. I just honestly got the date wrong.

However it doesn't matter, I paid the fine - my mistake, no redress.

Thanks,
pippitypip

[hardpressed]

If I buy a one day travel card covering all zones can I travel on the DLR?

[KeithP]

If I buy a one day travel card covering all zones can I travel on the DLR?
Let me google that for you. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=one+day+travel+card+all+zones)

[gner_ex]

I work in a railway prosecution office.

Factually these cases are only heard in Magistrates Courts.

Only more serious matters can go to the Crown Court...
The magistrates court _is_ part of the crown court!

[dzug1]

Every train? No train I use has them.

Anyway, getting back to the point, if you can operate a complicated thing like a train safely (on the DLR) with no staff at all on the train (no drivers, train captains, passenger service agents, nobody), then it should be perfectly possible to design barriers that could operate without being manned,


They can operate without being manned. It's catering for the exceptions that's the problem - they have to be both effective as barriers, and by-passable in case of need.

How do you distinguish between 'I need to get out of the station because I haven't got a ticket and don't want to pay' and 'I need to get out of the station coz I'm disabled and can't work the barriers' for example.