View Full Version : Average speed cameras and data collection
JMC39
07-03-2009, 12:38 PM
Hi,
Having just driven between Birmingham and Nottingham, I have been having to go through multiple average speed cameras.
Does anybody know what data the government collects with these? Seeing as they are ANRP cameras it is entirely possible that they could be used to monitor individuals location at any given time..... however I am sure the government would never want to monitor us like that :rotfl:....national location database for when ID cards just don't hack it!
Mathew
07-03-2009, 12:51 PM
I thought average speed cameras were just that and monitored people travelling to fast.
My understanding was that ANPR cameras are used live with assistance of technology to alert police off stolen cars, DVLA offences etc...
1984ReturnsForReal
07-03-2009, 1:12 PM
Hi,
Having just driven between Birmingham and Nottingham, I have been having to go through multiple average speed cameras.
Does anybody know what data the government collects with these? Seeing as they are ANRP cameras it is entirely possible that they could be used to monitor individuals location at any given time..... however I am sure the government would never want to monitor us like that :rotfl:....national location database for when ID cards just don't hack it!
You think wrong my friend.
All the data is kept.
1984ReturnsForReal
07-03-2009, 1:13 PM
I thought average speed cameras were just that and monitored people travelling to fast.
My understanding was that ANPR cameras are used live with assistance of technology to alert police off stolen cars, DVLA offences etc...
Yet another misguided individual.
Its all kept.
Mathew
07-03-2009, 1:33 PM
Yet another misguided individual.
Its all kept.
Sorry, not sure I follow. I don't mean to seem rude, but what am misguided about? I am genuinely curious, whats all kept?
dacouch
07-03-2009, 2:22 PM
The governments big brother network extends its tenticles once more...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/sep/15/civilliberties.police
Yes thats right, they will store all ANPR camera footage for 5 years at Hendon, which other country would put up with the amount of survellance etc we have.
No doubt there will be lots of posters saying "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about". Well I do, its about civil liberties, we used to laugh at the amount of survellance and the police states in eastern europe. Well now the UK is at the forefront of cctv survellance in the world and I'm not sure I'm easy about it
Thanks for the info guys, I am shocked that they actually keep the data.....I guess they need to keep it to protect us from "terrorists"!
max2009
07-03-2009, 4:32 PM
Most cameras now are ANPR (motorways,town roads,petrol and service stations).All info is stored in computer databases and is especially useful to monitor an individuals movements at any given time like they do for mobile phone location tracing.
Right, and so the remainder of us 60m+ have to forego our civil liberties for a vanishingly small percentage of so-called terrorists? This obsession with data about us, what we do, when we do it, with whom, how and where is extremely concerning and unfortunately we have been drawn into acquiessance and, on occasions, actually demanding that the powers-at-be do it. The constant clamour for more CCTV? Don't poeple realise that for CCTV to be really effective it would have to be everywhere? At present, besides the poor, cerebrally challenged individuals who perform when p*ssed or stoned, all that CCTV is doing is displacing crime, though to use the word "displacement" is regarded as heresy.
ANPR is providing very larger quantities of raw data and was part-argued into existence on the basis that it would enable the police (and other law enforcement agencies) to track major criminals. The problem is that they don't have the other half of the data (in a reliable form) to really match the two together. So what is this being used for now?
The current government has an unhealthy interest in our lives born partly out of their collective belief in "social-engineering" as a means of achieving change in social attitudes, health and education. The police jumped on the band-wagon years ago and just ride along in the slipstream and when one factors in their asserting themselves as some form of social arbiter (just read Sir Ian Blair's Dimbleby lecture of a few years ago if you don't believe me) one wonders how this can be reconciled with the still much-vaunted ethic of "policing by consent"?
There has been an exponential increase in surveillance over the last 10 years and there are now swathes of official (and some non-official) organisations who monitor our activities. This is not healthy for what remains of our democracy.
1984ReturnsForReal
07-03-2009, 5:18 PM
Sorry, not sure I follow. I don't mean to seem rude, but what am misguided about? I am genuinely curious, whats all kept?
---
Pretty much the location of your car, the time & date & a nice little pic..
I install these anpr camera for a living and can confirm that any data collected is not saved.
ANPR cameras on the motorway are used for journey time survey only, once the vehicle number plate is detected some letters of the plate is automatically removed for data protection. This data is sent back to a central daabase to determine the distance travelled and time.
I believe the police have ANPR sites installed for tax and insurence purposes although I have not come accross any on the jobs that i have worked on.
goldspanners
07-03-2009, 5:38 PM
I install these anpr camera for a living and can confirm that any data collected is not saved.
ANPR cameras on the motorway are used for journey time survey only, once the vehicle number plate is detected some letters of the plate is automatically removed for data protection. This data is sent back to a central daabase to determine the distance travelled and time.
until they manage to change a few laws.
dacouch
07-03-2009, 5:49 PM
They already have I'm afraid Flang and Goldspanners, have a read of this link (There is loads on the internet about it).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/sep/15/civilliberties.police
why do we put up with intrusion of our lives
if speeding is such a major problem then the fines and punishments should be greater
dacouch
07-03-2009, 6:19 PM
I've heard that they are also issuing fixed penalties for no insurance with the speeding FPN if when they cross check on the database and your car comes up as not insured (The database is 95% accurate).
The UK has at last count 1 cctv camera for every 14 people!!! We have 1% of the worlds population but 20% of the worlds CCTV cameras!!!
Maybe that will solve the jobs problems, we get even more cctv cameras and it will need more staff to watch them and hey presto we solve the jobs problem. The government could even use all of the extra cameras to raise tax sorry I meant fine more people...
Correct although the highways agency does not hold vehicle registrations, the police do what they want!
There are currently very few fixed police anpr sites throughout engand, ive never come accross any whilst working on many motorways.
Pew Pew Pew Lasers!
07-03-2009, 7:05 PM
I install these anpr camera for a living and can confirm that any data collected is not saved.
ANPR cameras on the motorway are used for journey time survey only, once the vehicle number plate is detected some letters of the plate is automatically removed for data protection. This data is sent back to a central daabase to determine the distance travelled and time.
I believe the police have ANPR sites installed for tax and insurence purposes although I have not come accross any on the jobs that i have worked on.
This is incorrect. I work in television and on a job a passenger of mine was waving a prop around in the car (fake plastic pistol). Despite my warning the passenger to stop being silly, a witness must have reported it.
A couple of weeks later my car was picked up on the M60 by a camera, and I was tracked all the way to Leeds, where once I left the motorway I was pulled over.
The (armed) officers told me they'd spotted me as soon as I joined the motorway in Manchester - a camera.
I don't know what routes you work on (btw - that's not an invitation for you to enumerate them) but I could take you to several sites right now and none of them would require my driving for more than half an hour from where I live. I don't live within the M25 either.
Static sites are not necessarily on the motorways themselves as you probably know all too well and were not necessarily originally installed by on on behalf of the police. They are not all painted yellow (as was originally mooted at the start of the project) and - camera dependant - do not always need the IR illuminators. Much of the data is now being obtained from what might be described as dual-purpose sites.
max2009
07-03-2009, 7:10 PM
Flang i know someone in special branch who told me differently.A lot of cameras take photos of 'suspects' vehicles and log them when their plates are flagged up on the database.
This is incorrect. I work in television and on a job a passenger of mine was waving a prop around in the car (fake plastic pistol). Despite my warning the passenger to stop being silly, a witness must have reported it.
A couple of weeks later my car was picked up on the M60 by a camera, and I was tracked all the way to Leeds, where once I left the motorway I was pulled over.
The (armed) officers told me they'd spotted me as soon as I joined the motorway in Manchester - a camera.
Not incorrect!
I expect you were caught on cctv camera and they followed you.
Highways agency anpr cameras are gprs/gsm and only send journey time data they do currently not send video or images.
1984ReturnsForReal
07-03-2009, 7:21 PM
Flang i know someone in special branch who told me differently.A lot of cameras take photos of 'suspects' vehicles and log them when their plates are flagged up on the database.
I think its also how they found out who the suspects were who were involved in the murder of Gerry Tobin.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Hells-Angel-Gerry-Tobins-Murder-Motorbike-Gang-Members-Are-Sentenced-To-Life/Article/200811415164024
Flang i know someone in special branch who told me differently.A lot of cameras take photos of 'suspects' vehicles and log them when their plates are flagged up on the database.
Hi max, im not saying cameras dont exist as i know they do. What iam saying is the highways agency dont store vehicle distance/usage data etc (not ur actual number plate anyway)
On controlled motorway/active traffic mangement sites, eg, m42,m25,m20 etc The highways agency collect data if you have been speeding (to send u a ticket). This data is on a different system and is far more secure, even the cables to the cams are fireproof and covered in mental conduit the cabinets are also like bank safes!!
dacouch
07-03-2009, 7:37 PM
The information from the highways cameras is available to the police "For specific investigations".
No doubt this will change as they would love to be able to monitor everyone, everywhere.
Mathew
07-03-2009, 7:48 PM
I posted something earlier whereby I thought that average speed cameras were just that and an ANPR camera was something used by Police to alert them of stolen vehicle and alike as described in other subsequent posts. I was told that i was mislead. However, reading these recent posts I'm not so sure that I was?
I thought speed cameras, whether permanent or not, were effectively the highways agency responsibility and obviously do record an image for purposes of later pursuing those who go to fast! However, do not check the Police's and DVLA for 'flagged' vehicles immediately. Indeed are only interested in vehicles going over limits
The less seen 'ANPR cameras' I thought are linked to the DVLA, Police databases in order to immediately identify vehicles of 'interest' like in 'Pew Pew Pew Lasers' account to alert the Police or alike. I presume there that the Police placed the number plate (obtained from witness) on there system that an ANPR camera recognised rather than any CCTV.
Pew Pew Pew Lasers!
07-03-2009, 7:55 PM
Not incorrect!
I expect you were caught on cctv camera and they followed you.
Highways agency anpr cameras are gprs/gsm and only send journey time data they do currently not send video or images.
Riiiight, so a CCTV camera caught me. That was lucky wasn't it, I bet there were only 500,000 cars passing along that road on that day.
Pew Pew Pew Lasers!
07-03-2009, 7:56 PM
I posted something earlier whereby I thought that average speed cameras were just that and an ANPR camera was something used by Police to alert them of stolen vehicle and alike as described in other subsequent posts..
A SPECS system is an ANPR system.
Happychappy
07-03-2009, 8:01 PM
This is incorrect. I work in television and on a job a passenger of mine was waving a prop around in the car (fake plastic pistol). Despite my warning the passenger to stop being silly, a witness must have reported it.
A couple of weeks later my car was picked up on the M60 by a camera, and I was tracked all the way to Leeds, where once I left the motorway I was pulled over.
The (armed) officers told me they'd spotted me as soon as I joined the motorway in Manchester - a camera.
A frightened or concerned member of the public would have reported that two brain dead knobbers were in a car waving a gun around, so the police would have created a report and entered a marker onto the PNC against the registration number so that any police vehicle or ANPR site which checked the car number plate would automatically have been informed that the vehicle was seen with two knobbers on board waving a firearm, which clearly worked in your case.........so your point is :rolleyes: ?
Hi mattew,
ANPR cameras can be used in many different ways. The highways agency has 10000s of ANPR cameras on the motorways which are usually attached to bridges or gantries. These are for journey time surveys; your numberplate is taken and a few digits are removed (for data protection) this is then sent to a database. Once your numberplate is taken again from another camera your journey time is calculated.
The other type are usually owned or in partnership with the police, these are used for no tax, mot etc, and are usually houses within a mobile van.
On motorways which have variable speed limits or hard sholder running (controlled motorways/acive traffic mangement or in road works) ANPR cameras are used to determine speed over distance.
In some cases gatsos are houses on top of ganties.
Mathew
07-03-2009, 8:04 PM
A SPECS system is an ANPR system.
I think all of the systems use the generic ANPR technology, as it may be the best out there although it is not 100%, but is it the less seen ANPR cameras on motorways main roads into towns that are linked to alert immediately. Ie could an bright yellow average speed camera on the motor picked up your car immediately and notified the Police
Riiiight, so a CCTV camera caught me. That was lucky wasn't it, I bet there were only 500,000 cars passing along that road on that day.
There is no other way mate unless a member of public reported you or the police had been following you.
its not hard to follow the same car on cctv!
Happychappy
07-03-2009, 8:07 PM
A SPECS system is an ANPR system.
The SPEC system has to be an automatic number plate system otherwise it wouldnt work ?
It does not however have access to the police national computer, it doest not give information markers, or have access to the MIB database, DVLA database and the many others the police use ? it only gives the number plate identifying the vehicle and the registered owner.
Most ANPR systems in the uk use the same technology and usually all made by PIPS technology http://www.pipstechnology.co.uk/
I have installed lots of Pips Spike and spike+ on lots of Uk motorways
1984ReturnsForReal
07-03-2009, 8:12 PM
The SPEC system has to be an automatic number plate system otherwise it wouldnt work ?
It does not however have access to the police national computer, it doest not give information markers, or have access to the MIB database, DVLA database and the many others the police use ? it only gives the number plate identifying the vehicle and the registered owner.
& then stores said data for the police to use at a later date should they require....
The SPEC system has to be an automatic number plate system otherwise it wouldnt work ?
It does not however have access to the police national computer, it doest not give information markers, or have access to the MIB database, DVLA database and the many others the police use ? it only gives the number plate identifying the vehicle and the registered owner.
SPECS now SPECS 2 only reads the number plates, I dont think it has access to any database until any vehicles are caught and passed onto the relevnt safety camera policing team
Mathew
07-03-2009, 8:18 PM
Flang,
Are you suggesting that there are no fixed camera's on the motorway that do not automatically read the number plate, immediately check it against database and then refer to immediately to action?
Flang,
Are you suggesting that there are no fixed camera's on the motorway that do not automatically read the number plate, immediately check it against database and then refer to immediately to action?
Not to my knowledge theres no bandwidth on the current system to do this.
The police do run live sites which are connected to live databases. To my knowledge the Highways Agency do not.
dacouch
07-03-2009, 8:27 PM
There are ANPR cameras at the junctions on lots of motorways as you go on / off
Happychappy
07-03-2009, 8:34 PM
There are ANPR cameras at the junctions on lots of motorways as you go on / off
Are you confusing these with the Traffic/master cameras
1984 Paranoid R US (http://www.ukspeedcameras.co.uk/guide.htm)
dacouch
07-03-2009, 8:36 PM
No I know what the blue traffic master cameras look like
1984ReturnsForReal
07-03-2009, 9:11 PM
It does not however have access to the police national computer, it doest not give information markers, or have access to the MIB database, DVLA database and the many others the police use ? it only gives the number plate identifying the vehicle and the registered owner.
---
& police come in. They tap in required reg number & all whereabouts of vehicle pops up with appropriate image with time & date stamp.
ticketcollector
07-03-2009, 9:47 PM
There's normally an ANPR site as you go into and out of Luton Airport. It uses the same style cameras as the London Congestion Charging zone uses, complete with the boxes (IR?) underneath the camera housing.
There's an unmarked white van and a 1/2 mile up the road a Beds Police 4x4 rangerover.
Im sure that's 'live' linked to many databases.
Mathew
07-03-2009, 9:57 PM
There are live ones positioned at most of the borders from county to county that are linked to the Police National Computer, DVLA etc and automatically alert Police to cars of interest.
dacouch
07-03-2009, 9:59 PM
They have them at most airports and at the docks now.
I amazed we have not had any people saying "If you have nothing to hide then you should not worry" as normally any discussion about ANPR, the national database or dna database gets a lot of them giving their opinion
ticketcollector
07-03-2009, 10:00 PM
There are live ones positioned at most of the borders from county to county that are linked to the Police National Computer, DVLA etc and automatically alert Police to cars of interest.
But why like black? I thought they had to be yellow or is that an old fad now. Also explains the 4x4 sitting 1/2 mile ahead.
Mathew
07-03-2009, 10:19 PM
But why like black? I thought they had to be yellow or is that an old fad now. Also explains the 4x4 sitting 1/2 mile ahead.
Not sure whether they had to be yellow in the past but I have def seen speed cameras there are not.
Although I don't think the 'live' ANPR cameras enforce speed.
Pew Pew Pew Lasers!
07-03-2009, 10:25 PM
There is no other way mate unless a member of public reported you or the police had been following you.
its not hard to follow the same car on cctv!
Really. So why did the officer who stopped me mention that I'd been picked up by camera? For clarification, I mentioned ANPR and he seemed somewhat surprised that I knew what it was.
CCTV, lol. You really expect me to believe someone was sat watching for my car? This was a week after the initial report.
ticketcollector
07-03-2009, 10:28 PM
CCTV, lol. You really expect me to believe someone was sat watching for my car? This was a week after the initial report.
So that's where my taxes get spent, on loads of people working shifts watching cameras looking for 1 particular reg plate?
flang
07-03-2009, 10:37 PM
Really. So why did the officer who stopped me mention that I'd been picked up by camera? For clarification, I mentioned ANPR and he seemed somewhat surprised that I knew what it was.
CCTV, lol. You really expect me to believe someone was sat watching for my car? This was a week after the initial report.
Sorry mate its a fact. Unless of course your a Highway Technology engineer, like myself......
My suggestion is you must have been picked up by a mobile unit, there everywhere nowdays.
And for your information people do sit and watch CCTV cameras on the motorway and yes they can follow vehicles throughout the network.
dacouch
07-03-2009, 11:00 PM
Pew there are ANPR cameras on a lot of the motorways, there are definately some on the M60 look here... (Just google "M60 + ANPR) or any other motorway.
http://www.its.leeds.ac.uk/staff/staffProfile.php?personId=1179
This is an interesting page
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/17/spooks_want_oyster/
Basically if its got cameras it will be linked to a government agency of its not they will be doing their best to get it linked.
Happychappy
07-03-2009, 11:01 PM
And where do these mysterious police come from ? is this your paranoi finally taking control, or is this a the result of a criminal investigation and an audit trail through the data protection act and disclosure of information, or in your strange world does PC Plod think " ah wonder what 1984 has been up to today, I shall search for his car, oh that doesnt look like Mrs 1984"
What about the CCTV system which tracked the asians responsible for the July bombing, the Glasgow airport asians expressing their right to protest?should that information never have been released to the police? or crimewatch when CCTV has film of a !!!!!phile or rapist leaving a scene, should this evidence never have been captured and handed over to the police....what is it exactly that you are so frightened of ? if the police should not see the film, who should ? you and the Daily Mail ? talk about working with one hand behind your back and policing by consent, may as well play cards all night.
dacouch
07-03-2009, 11:19 PM
Lol...I said it would happen
1984ReturnsForReal
07-03-2009, 11:30 PM
And where do these mysterious police come from ? is this your paranoi finally taking control, or is this a the result of a criminal investigation and an audit trail through the data protection act and disclosure of information, or in your strange world does PC Plod think " ah wonder what 1984 has been up to today, I shall search for his car, oh that doesnt look like Mrs 1984"
What about the CCTV system which tracked the asians responsible for the July bombing, the Glasgow airport asians expressing their right to protest?should that information never have been released to the police? or crimewatch when CCTV has film of a !!!!!phile or rapist leaving a scene, should this evidence never have been captured and handed over to the police....what is it exactly that you are so frightened of ? if the police should not see the film, who should ? you and the Daily Mail ? talk about working with one hand behind your back and policing by consent, may as well play cards all night.
Blahdy blahdy blah.......
One - The collection of data is happening (if you choose to disagree thats fine by me. It just shows me how stupid you are)
Two - Said data is misused (**** as above)
Three - Said Terror Laws are misused (**** as above)
Four - Said police have been corrupt (**** as above)
Five - I dont read the daily mail & obviously are more informed than yourself (**** as above)
If you disagree ask Levy where his DNA sample is.
dacouch
07-03-2009, 11:32 PM
Nice one 1984 lol,
Do you not think his name is an oxymoran?
1984ReturnsForReal
07-03-2009, 11:43 PM
Nice one 1984 lol,
Do you not think his name is an oxymoran?
Just "moron"
dacouch
07-03-2009, 11:52 PM
Its the same tactic New Labour use if someone does says something they do not like, you complain about the DNA database or the 42 day incaration or the cctv cameras then you must have something to hide. You discuss about immigration you are a racist. You discuss about the government wasting money then they say you are stopping money going to build schools or hospitals etc etc.
I'm all for having a healthy discussion with anyone and enjoy it, I get annoyed when they try and play the guilt trip on you rather than entering into a discussion.
I have the greatest respect for the police and people who join the police, without them our country would be a mess. Our police are the envy of the world and we should be proud of them. But the last time I looked we are a democracy and people are entitled to question the merits of the big brother state after all the UK is "Leading" the world in having cameras throughout the country etc
Pew Pew Pew Lasers!
08-03-2009, 2:15 AM
Damn right I have something to hide - my right to go about my daily business without being monitored by the state.
Each time I think about it, the thought of buying a canal boat and removing myself from just about every database there is gets more appealing.
goldspanners
08-03-2009, 2:19 AM
i think the moral to this story is if you plan to commit a crime get a fake set of plates made up on ebay for a similar vehicle to yours and go about your criminal buisness without a care in the world.someone else hundreds of miles away will get the blame.
1984ReturnsForReal
08-03-2009, 2:37 AM
i think the moral to this story is if you plan to commit a crime get a fake set of plates made up on ebay for a similar vehicle to yours and go about your criminal buisness without a care in the world.someone else hundreds of miles away will get the blame.
How true...........
Hmmm, so upon asking the original question it seems nobody can confirm 100% what information the government is recording. How do you go about using the Freedom of Information act....
It would be safe to assume that registration number, location and direction of travel (plus time, date and place etc) are being recorded. The link to the guardian article probably gave the best overview and stated that the Home Office are looking to retain this data for 5 years. As one of the arguments for the storage of the data will undoubtedly by "national security" a FOI application is a waste of time in terms of establishing detail.
1984ReturnsForReal
08-03-2009, 3:40 PM
It would be safe to assume that registration number, location and direction of travel (plus time, date and place etc) are being recorded.
Reg number, location & directon are stored.
As well as speed & a nice little pic...
Speed for "info purposes only".
& Pic because any of the above is useless in court without it..
dacouch
08-03-2009, 3:52 PM
I found a freedom of information act from the Highways agency last night but my computer crashed and I can't find it now. It is out there in google land and basically said the highways agency have 1200 odd anpr cameras and that they allow the police access to the average speed cameras for specific investigations. No doubt this will change or may have already changed.
The storage of the data at Hendon for 5 years I believe has already started.
This link from 2006 demonstrates the future intentions for the scheme
http://www.openrightsgroup.org/orgwiki/index.php/National_Vehicle_Tracking_Database
As the UK is at the for front of having camers everywhere and them being monitored I personally think there should be more debate about it in parliment etc. As we are going where no other country has gone there is a possible errosion of civil liberties and we should all think very carefully on this.
There are no doubt advantages of the system but there are draw backs as well, may be the future plans also include something along the lines of Minority Report
ticketcollector
09-03-2009, 1:55 AM
Can see it now.
You are under arrest for the future crime of driving along the M25 at 80 MPH.
or
You are hereby fined for the most evil of future crime of failing to pay all your tax on time at the appointed time.
1984ReturnsForReal
09-03-2009, 6:27 PM
Can see it now.
You are under arrest for the future crime of driving along the M25 at 80 MPH.
or
You are hereby fined for the most evil of future crime of failing to pay all your tax on time at the appointed time.
Or how about....
£200 fine & 5pts for stopping in a checked box at a junction because someone needlessly stopped in front of you leaving you with no alternative.
You object in court & a trial date is set. The CPS prepare for the trial look into you prior driving habits searching the database & there is lots of data & photos available.
Offence 2
Driving at 71mph on the motorway at 2.30am after a fight back from your holiday. 3pts & £30
Offence 3
Driving at 43 mph in a 40 zone whilst overtaking a tractor. £30 + 3pts
Offence 4
Driving at 68mph on the motorway on the 5th November 2004 at 2.30pm. You argue & state thats its not illegal. The prosecution state that the motorway was under a 50mph limit at the time due to roadworks. £60 fine & 4pts & loss of licence.
dacouch
09-03-2009, 9:58 PM
1984 You may already realise this so sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs but it is not illegal to enter a box junction and stop if your right indicator is on. My mate just discovered this and accidently leaves his right indicator on now if he enters a box junction.
1984ReturnsForReal
09-03-2009, 10:47 PM
1984 You may already realise this so sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs but it is not illegal to enter a box junction and stop if your right indicator is on. My mate just discovered this and accidently leaves his right indicator on now if he enters a box junction.
Didnt know that...
harveybobbles
09-03-2009, 10:50 PM
They could use cameras like this...
http://gigapan.org/viewGigapanFullscreen.php?auth=033ef14483ee8994966 48c2b4b06233c
you can zoom in anywhere. Kinda scary...
Martin1979
09-03-2009, 10:55 PM
The only time you can stop on a box junction is when turning right and your exit is clear and its only on comming car at are preventing you from going.
If going staight on a car stops in front and cause you to stop you are in the wrong because you shouldnt have entered untill you know its clear having a right indercator on wont make a difference.
martin
AirlieBird
09-03-2009, 11:04 PM
1984 You may already realise this so sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs but it is not illegal to enter a box junction and stop if your right indicator is on. My mate just discovered this and accidently leaves his right indicator on now if he enters a box junction.
That's not quite correct. You can enter a box junction with the intention of turning right and stop if your exit is blocked by oncoming traffic or stationary traffic also wanting to turn right.
7. — (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person— (a)
who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)
stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn. (The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/legResults.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=Traffic+Signs&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&activeTextDocId=2917794), Schedule 19, Part 2)
1984ReturnsForReal
09-03-2009, 11:05 PM
They could use cameras like this...
http://gigapan.org/viewGigapanFullscreen.php?auth=033ef14483ee8994966 48c2b4b06233c
you can zoom in anywhere. Kinda scary...
It looks like George W Bush is holding the remote kill button!!:eek:
dacouch
09-03-2009, 11:09 PM
Thats basically what I meant airlie bird you just explained it in better detail.
1984 there are insurance policies that pay out for you to get taxis or hire a chaufeur if you lose your licence through totting up or can't drive through illness or injury. They are surprisingly cheap, it might be worth you getting one as they can be well handy and they are normally tax deductable. Google "Chaufeur Plan"
dacouch
09-03-2009, 11:11 PM
Oh and by the way I read today that the UK now has 25% of the CCTV cameras in the entire world for only 1% of the population of the world...
George Orwell was right but he just got his dates a bit wrong!
harveybobbles
10-03-2009, 7:52 AM
It looks like George W Bush is holding the remote kill button!!:eek:
Click and zoom in anywhere...!!
dacouch
10-03-2009, 10:50 AM
It looks like George W Bush is holding the remote kill button!!:eek:
The ironic thing is because you have used some of the key words they look for eg George Pratt and kill you posting would have automatically been read by the US intelligence (That must be an oxymoron) and the UK version!
Have you ever done the email test eg sending the same email to yourself at the same time with key words in
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