View Full Version : Neighbours tree & my car !x! a legal question
My neigbours tree is leaving a " sticky " sap all over my car .. which is now attracting millions of flys !! Doesnt matter how many times I wash it, the saps back the next day...
Ive spoken to them & they agreed it is a problem & is damaging thier cars too, however their landlord has refused to cut the tree back ..
Does anyone know where we stand legally for the damage its causing please
:confused:
Thank you,
Mandi
standupguy
23-07-2008, 8:25 PM
I think the legal position is that if there are branches that extend over the boundary of your property then you have a right to cut them down providing you offer to return them to your neighbours
Thanks Standup, its not that the branches are in my garden , its the height & position of the tree, the sap just goes everwhere.. & I dont have anywhere else to park ...
anewman
23-07-2008, 8:29 PM
One option is to detail the car which should hopefully reduce imperfections caused by the tree sap, and will help prevent tree sap causing damage to the paint - start with a good wash with a quality shampoo (autoglym shampoo is one option), clay bar (meguiars quik clay), wash again, polish with a good quality polish (Autoglym Super Resin Polish), use a quality sealant applying 2-3 coats (Autoglym Extra Gloss Protection), and finish off with a quality wax with at least 2 coats (Collinite 476s). Also see www.detailingworld.com (http://www.detailingworld.com)
You can buy products specially to remove tree sap.
The wax should make the tree sap not stick to the car so easily or cause any damage.
ah thanks Anewman .. really apprieciate your post .. Ill give it a try
steveo3002
23-07-2008, 8:47 PM
dunno so much...proper tree sap will ruin a freshly waxed car in no time
i keep mine near mint at all times and the odd time parked under a tree ive found it a right paint to clean up
I was hoping there was something I could do legally, as the tree is an evergreen , so I have the problem all year .. seems to get worse the taller the tree gets :mad:
Not a jot. It's like trying to claim from the council because birds poo on your car.
Park a bit further up the street and walk if its so bad.
No legal solution, as the sap is considered natural. No liability.
molerat
23-07-2008, 10:15 PM
cough .... copper nails ...... cough :eek:
mandi
23-07-2008, 10:17 PM
Not a jot. It's like trying to claim from the council because birds poo on your car.
Park a bit further up the street and walk if its so bad.
Wish I could Conor, but not possible ..Thanks anyway
Gangstabird
23-07-2008, 10:18 PM
Molerat, I am shocked at you
Cough, add jeyes fluid into holes made by nails;) , Cough
goldspanners
23-07-2008, 10:22 PM
Molerat, I am shocked at you
Cough, add jeyes fluid into holes made by nails;) , Cough
the tree hugger will be here in a minute!:D
steveo3002
23-07-2008, 10:26 PM
Molerat, I am shocked at you
Cough, add jeyes fluid into holes made by nails;) , Cough
still take years to kill it wouldnt it?
if you knew when theyre out you could pretend you own the house and arrange for it to be cut down and taken away lol
LandyAndy
23-07-2008, 11:24 PM
Get it cut down. Tell the LL 'a big boy did it and ran away'. What's he going to do?
Just to clarify….is this a tree on neighbours property which overhangs your property and drips sap on to your car whilst it is parked on your property?
pianeet
24-07-2008, 5:21 AM
cough .... copper nails ...... cough :eek:
i reckon copper nails are an old wives tale, i have a lime tree at the front of my house with more copper nails in it than b and q ,when my car caught fire on the drive a few years a go and set fire to the tree i thought it would have to be chopped down,but it just produced even more sap,
Debt_Free_Chick
24-07-2008, 6:36 AM
Is your car parked on the Highway (road). If so, there is absolutey no liability on anyone - the "legal" argument will be not to park there. In other words, you can take reasonable steps to avoid the damage and you would be expected to do so.
If the car is on your drive, I still think there's no liability. The neighbour or his LL is not causing the damage and there's nothing they can do to prevent the tree doing it's natural stuff. Of course, one solution would be to chop the tree down - but I don't think that would be viewed as a reasonable solution. If it were, then every tree in every urban area would be chopped down, to prevent landowners being "responsible" for damage to neighbours' property.
Sorry - but I can't see anyone having any liability for this. Except, of course, the tree ;)
Belnahua
24-07-2008, 6:55 AM
Wasn't it stormy last night? Must've come down in the storms?
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn235/Dalavich29/DSCF2397-1.jpg
Debt_Free_Chick
24-07-2008, 7:07 AM
Wasn't it stormy last night? Must've come down in the storms?
Also affected by some obscure disease which caused it and the other tree in the background to think it was winter - no leaves! ;)
OMG - that disease has spread to the hedge too :rotfl:
Belnahua
24-07-2008, 7:41 AM
no leaves! ;)
:rotfl:
Told you it was windy, it even blew the leaves off!:)
BTW, I actually got the car out with out a scratch! Lucky or what?!?
cyclonebri1
24-07-2008, 9:44 AM
Ring bark it one dark night?, if your neighbours on your side should be no problem from there.:confused:
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Coat on ready to dodge rampant tree huggers;)
pulliptears
24-07-2008, 11:20 AM
OH had the copper nails theory with some laurel trees in our garden.....didnt work.
He drilled holes into the roots and poured in diesel.....didnt work.
Kept him out of my hair for months while he poured every household cleaner/bleach etc into the holes in an attempt to kill them. In the end I chopped them down and dug up the roots. Job done :D
Conor
24-07-2008, 11:34 AM
Wish I could Conor, but not possible ..Thanks anyway
Why not? Is it parking where each resident is assigned a specific parking place?
Mojisola
24-07-2008, 11:47 AM
I was hoping there was something I could do legally, as the tree is an evergreen , so I have the problem all year
What kind of tree is it? I can't think of an evergreen that will produce that much sap summer and winter. Have you got a photo of it?
markelock
24-07-2008, 12:00 PM
assuming you park on your land, and the tree sap comes from the landlords land onto your car, I'd say it's his responsibility to look after it. law of tort, see rylands v fletcher maybe?
anewman
24-07-2008, 12:04 PM
Just thought, could you by any chance get a carport or garage put up? No idea on planning regulations and requirements etc though. For example http://www.cswshopping.co.uk/maxiport-self-supporting-carport-1600-3035-white-finish-p-125.html
ozvaldinho
24-07-2008, 12:54 PM
It's not actually tree sap causing the problem, it's exploding aphids. I don't know the exact technical details, but apparently certain trees attract or host billions of certain aphids at this time of year. These aphids gorge themselves on tree sap and a proportion of them explode after over-indulging, this 'sap' is actually aphid guts. Lime trees are a particular problem this time of year, unfortunately some of my motors are kept in the drive of a historic building where the trees are protected with preservation orders.
My solution...go to Halfords and buy a cover for your car. Takes a minute or two with practice and is useful at the other times of year when trees are a pain, ie spring blossom, summer aphids, autumn conkers/acorns/beechnuts/falling leaves, winter frosts and year-round bird and squirrel crap.
Just to clarify….is this a tree on neighbours property which overhangs your property and drips sap on to your car whilst it is parked on your property?
Apparently it does not overhang, and the sap or honey-dew (we have not determined which yet) blows over the fence onto the car.
It's not actually tree sap causing the problem, it's exploding aphids.
The tree is an evergreen. Doesn't that suggest conifer? In which case it might be sap.
cyclonebri1
24-07-2008, 1:46 PM
It's not actually tree sap causing the problem, it's exploding aphids. I don't know the exact technical details, but apparently certain trees attract or host billions of certain aphids at this time of year. These aphids gorge themselves on tree sap and a proportion of them explode after over-indulging, this 'sap' is actually aphid guts. Lime trees are a particular problem this time of year, unfortunately some of my motors are kept in the drive of a historic building where the trees are protected with preservation orders.
My solution...go to Halfords and buy a cover for your car. Takes a minute or two with practice and is useful at the other times of year when trees are a pain, ie spring blossom, summer aphids, autumn conkers/acorns/beechnuts/falling leaves, winter frosts and year-round bird and squirrel crap.
Wow, exploding aphids:cool: sounds plausible enough. Sensible action would be a carport/cover, carport more expensive but much, much more practicle.;)
assuming you park on your land, and the tree sap comes from the landlords land onto your car, I'd say it's his responsibility to look after it. law of tort, see rylands v fletcher maybe?
Rylands v Fletcher was a non-natural use of the land. Tree sap and honey-dew(aphids) are considered to be natural, as are leaves, seeds and falling small branches.
http://www.aie.org.uk/resources/case_law/aie_case_lime.html
It could be different if there was a car parking area close to the boundary, and the neighbour subsequently deliberately brought in an planted a tree likely to cause honey-dew or sap - close to the boundary/car park area.
cyclonebri1
24-07-2008, 1:51 PM
The tree is an evergreen. Doesn't that suggest conifer? In which case it might be sap.
It does, but laurel, and many other non-conifer evergreens do exist. Whether it's expoling sap mites or whatever the issue comes from the tree.
Ring barking as mentioned in my earlier post always works, bit like cutting the trees jugular.:eek: . Absent landlord =:T
markelock
24-07-2008, 2:32 PM
although the case quoted dealt with a tree that had a preservation order.
surely the owner of a tree that causes damage is liable, even if it's through his insurance?
Mojisola
24-07-2008, 3:36 PM
It's not actually tree sap causing the problem, it's exploding aphids. I don't know the exact technical details, but apparently certain trees attract or host billions of certain aphids at this time of year. These aphids gorge themselves on tree sap and a proportion of them explode after over-indulging, this 'sap' is actually aphid guts.
I don't think the aphids explode - it's just natural processes. They suck the tree sap, use some of the nutrients and the rest makes its way out the other end. It's called honeydew which is a rather nice name for what it actually is!
If this is a problem that goes on right through the winter, it's unlikely to be honeydew. Aphids don't usually cause problems even in our recent milder winters.
although the case quoted dealt with a tree that had a preservation order
surely the owner of a tree that causes damage is liable, even if it's through his insurance?
and more importantly the tree was owned by the people that wanted to cut it down so the case was essentially about ways of getting round the TPO.
In the OPs case I’d say that R&F or similar does apply in that the tree has been brought onto the land and is causing damage on the neighbours land.
martindow
24-07-2008, 6:47 PM
In the OPs case I’d say that R&F or similar does apply in that the tree has been brought onto the land and is causing damage on the neighbours land.
From the wikipedia article on this case
"Rylands appealed to the House of Lords which dismissed the appeal and agreed with the determination for Fletcher, in 1868 (L.R. 3 H.L. 330). Lord Cairns, in speaking for the House of Lords, stated their agreement of the rule stated above by Justice Blackburn, but added a further limitation on liability, which is that the land from which the escape occurs must have been modified in a way which would be considered non-natural, unusual or inappropriate."
The tree sap or aphids are not non- natural, unusual or inappropriate so I don't think it would apply. In addition nothing has been introduced onto neighbouring land as presumably the tree was in place when the OP moved in.
I'm not a lawyer but it makes interesting reading!
From the wikipedia article on this case
"Rylands appealed to the House of Lords which dismissed the appeal and agreed with the determination for Fletcher, in 1868 (L.R. 3 H.L. 330). Lord Cairns, in speaking for the House of Lords, stated their agreement of the rule stated above by Justice Blackburn, but added a further limitation on liability, which is that the land from which the escape occurs must have been modified in a way which would be considered non-natural, unusual or inappropriate."
The tree sap or aphids are not non- natural, unusual or inappropriate so I don't think it would apply. In addition nothing has been introduced onto neighbouring land as presumably the tree was in place when the OP moved in.
I'm not a lawyer but it makes interesting reading!
Yep, it’s fascinating
I think the “natural state” has been further defined as “rocks and thistles” i.e. things that are just there naturally. If you bring something on to your land which escapes and does damage then R&F liability applies no matter how careful you have been and it’s strict liability so the damage or escape can be completely unforeseeable
If there is a stream then that’s natural, if there is a stream and you divert it or dam it and it floods and causes damage then you are liable.
If this tree has always been there and grew wild like from a wind blown seed then it could possibly be argued that it was natural. If the tree was planted or cultivated in any way then it is not natural and R&F applies.
I think the TPO is not relevant in the decesion process. What the judge would have been considering was whether there was a nuisance. It is reported the council found there to be no nuisance - the judge agreed. Without further information this could mean two things
1. The council determined that there was no fungus or that if there was fungus the honey dew was not held to be its cause.
2. That the honey dew being natural, could not be classed as a nuisance because it is natural.
IMHO both could be the reason why the case failed but I actually suspect it was the first one.
Tree debris is a natural process, and the damage caused can be said to be minimal or non existant.
The excerpt below is from Cheshire council, it would seem that the OP will have to attempt to make new case law. The OP should write to the landlord so he is at least informed of the nuisance, so that he cannot claim to have had no knowledge. OP could also threaten legal action, and maybe bluff the landlord into submission, perhaps OP and the tenant could agree to split the cost of tree removal and offer to pay for it to be done. Landlords generally refuse to do things to save money rather than for emotional reasons.
In considering any case a judge would have to consider that a ruling in the OPs favour would leave councils across the country liable for millions of motorists claims for car cleaning. It just would never happen.
General Nuisance from Leaf-fall, Fruiting Bodies, Sap, Bird Fouling and Pollen
Being living, growing organisms some trees have certain characteristics that are not always compatible with the expectations of some residents. In particular, the Council does receive sporadic complaints on tree related problems such as leaf-fall, fruiting bodies, sap and bird fouling.
Most of these phenomena are natural and seasonal processes and there is little the Council can, or indeed would wish to do to alleviate them. The Council does not accept liability for damage as a result of such natural deposits from trees and there is no decided case law holding that these phenomena are a legal nuisance.
Debt_Free_Chick
24-07-2008, 8:22 PM
I think the TPO is not relevant in the decesion process. What the judge would have been considering was whether there was a nuisance.
I'm inclined to agree with my learned friend :D
TPOs do not mean that a protected tree can never be cut down - just that the circumstances that lead to its removal are carefully controlled and need the agreement of the Tree Officer at the Local Authority.
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