Directline wtf?

[gebby7323]

ok..my 1st post so plz help if u can..my story is:-

10 months ago my daughter passes her driving test..we get her a peugot 106 on an R plate..we spend £800 on a serveice and parts etc..etc..recently 2 new tyres on the rear..BTW my wife is 42 and my daughter is 25 and has a daughter of her own..

so a few weeks ago someone rear ended her.."dont worry" we said,we got fully comp insurance so no worries(so we thought).Now they offered us £960 as the car was a write off..of course you never accept the 1st offer...then the proverbial fecal matter hit the fan.

apparently we didnt tell them about the alloy wheels on the car?? i said why...they came with the car when we brought it and i thought i only had to inform you of modifications I make to the car...apparently not!!??

anyhow.i told the woman who phoned us who appeared to accept our story and we thought thats the last of it.well..yesterday 1/7/08 the MOST rude woman ever rings us..insists my wife pay £189.00 or thet are going to cancel the policy because we didnt tell them about a modification we didnt know about and we never made..any advice on what i do now..i,m going to try complaining to direct but am not hopeful..so where do i go from there??
MIB or financial ombudsman??:confused:

thanks in advance for all suggestions

[haggisAThome]

ahh the old get out clause for the insurance ... are they standard peugeot alloy wheels ? or aftermarket ?

[Phlik]

If the car didn't roll off the assembly line with alloy wheels as standard then it is classed as a modification, even if the wheels fitted are genuine Peugeot items.

If the alloys are not Peugeot wheels then I'd pay the £189 and be thankful.

If they are genuine Peugeot wheels then you might be able to persuade them otherwise, I wouldn't push your luck though. Trying to get insurance after you've had a policy cancelled due to a fraudulent claim is very difficult, very expensive and will follow her for the rest of her life.

Out of interest, how much did you buy the car for originally?

Phlik

[thescouselander]

As far as I am aware, if the alloy wheels were an option or standard fit on that specific model and year of car then it is not a modification. If this is the case for your car then its worth arguing the point and threaten to take it up with the FOS - with any luck they will decide its cheaper to concede.


If the wheels are after market ones then it is definately a modification in which case you will probably have to pay up.

[AdrianHi]

Firstly, if you do feel you need to complain follow the procedure:
http://www.directline.com/complaints/complaintsprocedure.htm
The "FOS" will expect you to have done this before getting them involved.

I am surprised to hear that the person you dealt with was rude, but it is your responsibility to inform them of modifications which is a tough one since many people are not going to know enough about cars to know which wheels are standard and which are not. Under the circumstances, asking you to pay the premium difference rather than refusing the claim is more than they legally have to do.

[Keith]

As far as I am aware, if the alloy wheels were an option or standard fit on that specific model and year of car then it is not a modification. If this is the case for your car then its worth arguing the point and threaten to take it up with the FOS - with any luck they will decide its cheaper to concede.


If the wheels are after market ones then it is definately a modification in which case you will probably have to pay up.


This is the case, I think the rule was established by someone who fitted the old RS 7 spokes to his Ford and the insurance company tried to void his policy for it.

[raskazz]

As far as I am aware, if the alloy wheels were an option or standard fit on that specific model and year of car then it is not a modification.

No, optional extras are still classed as modifications as they do alter the performance / desirability to theives / value of the car and as such also affect the risk to the insurer. It also doesn't matter whether the non-standard wheels are Peugeot or not - what matters is that they have altered the spec of the car from the standard spec.

You have to declare all modifications or extras added, regardless of whether you made the changes yourself or a previous owner did. The onus is on the policyholder to find out if the car is altered and notify the insurer accordingly.

On the facts, the insurer is dealing with the matter in the right way. This is a case of 'inadvertent non-disclosure' and - in accordance with the FOS guidance - they are offering to deal with the claim subject to the payment of the difference between the premium paid and the premium that would have been charged had the modification been disclosed when the policy was set up.

[Phlik]

No, optional extras are still classed as modifications as they do alter the performance / desirability to theives / value of the car and as such also affect the risk to the insurer. It also doesn't matter whether the non-standard wheels are Peugeot or not - what matters is that they have altered the spec of the car from the standard spec.

You have to declare all modifications or extras added, regardless of whether you made the changes yourself or a previous owner did. The onus is on the policyholder to find out if the car is altered and notify the insurer accordingly.

On the facts, the insurer is dealing with the matter in the right way. This is a case of 'inadvertent non-disclosure' and - in accordance with the FOS guidance - they are offering to deal with the claim subject to the payment of the difference between the premium paid and the premium that would have been charged had the modification been disclosed when the policy was set up.


Yup, exactly the way I understand it too.

Some of the more unscrupulous insurance companies would have to just thrown your claim out and cancelled your policy.

Phlik

[Hintza]

OP was your daughter hit or did she hit someone? If the former why is it going through your insurance if she is not at fault?

[cajef]

Yup, exactly the way I understand it too.



Agreed, we bought a six month old car from a main dealer which unknown to us had been fitted with optional factory alloys from new, it was involved in an accident and written off.

The insurance, which was also Direct Line, requested an extra payment to cover the wheels as they were considered as a non-standard modification, but this was actually more than recovered as the extra cost of the alloys was taken into account and added to the value of the car in the final settlement.

[AdrianHi]

When I first took a policy out for my new factory order car back in November 2005 with Direct Line (been with them for years before that) they wanted to know all the additional options I had on the car, these are listed on my policy document.

[hotcookie101]

I recently changed my standard fit car radio for a sat-nav head unit(bought second hand) and a harman-kardon Drive+play (Ipod thingy) I had it fitted professionally (unfortunately company no longer there now) Should I have informed my insurance company? Or is it as I thought modifications only count if affecting performance etc?

[raskazz]

I recently changed my standard fit car radio for a sat-nav head unit(bought second hand) and a harman-kardon Drive+play (Ipod thingy) I had it fitted professionally (unfortunately company no longer there now) Should I have informed my insurance company? Or is it as I thought modifications only count if affecting performance etc?

You should tell your insurer. Anything that changes the spec of the car from standard model should be disclosed.

[thescouselander]

No, optional extras are still classed as modifications as they do alter the performance / desirability to theives / value of the car and as such also affect the risk to the insurer. It also doesn't matter whether the non-standard wheels are Peugeot or not - what matters is that they have altered the spec of the car from the standard spec.

You have to declare all modifications or extras added, regardless of whether you made the changes yourself or a previous owner did. The onus is on the policyholder to find out if the car is altered and notify the insurer accordingly.

On the facts, the insurer is dealing with the matter in the right way. This is a case of 'inadvertent non-disclosure' and - in accordance with the FOS guidance - they are offering to deal with the claim subject to the payment of the difference between the premium paid and the premium that would have been charged had the modification been disclosed when the policy was set up.


This really isn't practical. Most cars these days come with a long list of options available and no two cars are the same. I don't give the exact specification including the optional extras to the insurer every time I get a quote.

My OH who has worked in motor insurance for years reckons if it is a standard option that was originally available on the car then it is not a modification. On the other hand if the option. was not available for that exact model and specification of car it would be a modification

[jenner]

oh, this is worrying me. i bought my first car last september. i saw on the receipt that the first owner had, that he had paid £500 for air con, so its obviously an extra. is this a modification?

[redux]

You should tell your insurer. Anything that changes the spec of the car from standard model should be disclosed.

Every time I'm asked if the car is modified, I say a towbar is fitted. Nobody ever asked what make, and no policy document has ever listed it.

[raskazz]

This really isn't practical. Most cars these days come with a long list of options available and no two cars are the same. I don't give the exact specification including the optional extras to the insurer every time I get a quote.

My OH who has worked in motor insurance for years reckons if it is a standard option that was originally available on the car then it is not a modification. On the other hand if the option. was not available for that exact model and specification of car it would be a modification

Your OH is either mistaken or works for an insurer who has a substantially different attitude to the rest of the market.

Eg a car has a body kit, alloy wheels, sunroof, leather seats, spoiler all as factory fitted optional extras. As an insurer, to disregard these simply because they were optional and not aftermarket would be insanity and lead to severely underpriced policies.

It is practical - in fact, this case proves that the insurance market takes a sensible approach to such circumstances as it is willing to cover the claim and forgive the insured's lax approach to disclosure, subject to the extra premium - rather than rejecting the claim full stop.

[raskazz]

oh, this is worrying me. i bought my first car last september. i saw on the receipt that the first owner had, that he had paid £500 for air con, so its obviously an extra. is this a modification?

You shouldn't be unduly worrried - just call your insurer and tell them!

[gebby7323]

ok..thanks guys/gals..great help..i was of the mind of some above..i buy the car as seen..i have no idea what is standard or what is not..the alloys in question seem to have been an "option" at the time which the 1st owner decided on..i honestly thought that i only had to tell them if i made any modifications..luckily we have paid the extra...although we were left with little option..and i think we will settle and learn from our experience..still going to complain about the rudeness of the woman dealing with the claim..

i guess the lesson to learn is if in doubt tell your insurer..worst happens is u waste a few pence on a phone call..way cheaper than finding another £183.

thanks again

[ihatecharges]

In my experience you should declare all options fitted to the car, different colour trims maybe not, but if you choose 18" alloys in place of the standard 16" alloys and top spec Satnav instead of a standard radio then ask yourself is it worth the risk of not declaring it!

I have declared all the options fitted to my car including Premium ICE, leather interior, Xenon Adaptive lighting etc and my premium was not increased!

[leehal]

I thought they only wanted to know about the things that may make your car stand out from the crowd and make your car more desirable to a thief e.g. alloys,spoiler etc

I have some non-standard things on my Touran (park assist, heated seats etc) but I doubt they would make this car more attractive for a thief.

[Keith]

I have some non-standard things on my Touran (park assist, heated seats etc) but I doubt they would make this car more attractive for a thief.

But what if you crashed it? Wouldn't those same options push up the cost of a replacement vehicle, therefore increasing the risk...

[thescouselander]

Your OH is either mistaken or works for an insurer who has a substantially different attitude to the rest of the market.

Eg a car has a body kit, alloy wheels, sunroof, leather seats, spoiler all as factory fitted optional extras. As an insurer, to disregard these simply because they were optional and not aftermarket would be insanity and lead to severely underpriced policies.

It is practical - in fact, this case proves that the insurance market takes a sensible approach to such circumstances as it is willing to cover the claim and forgive the insured's lax approach to disclosure, subject to the extra premium - rather than rejecting the claim full stop.


If this is the case then why don't insurers ask specifically what equipment is fitted to your car when they are providing a quote? All they ask is "has the car beem modified?" this is not the same as asking "what optional extras have been fitted". If the car is the same as when it came out of the factory the answer has to be no regardless of which optional extras are fitted.

Im sure the insurers factor in the differences between individual cars regarding the extras fitted so the premiums are probably averaged out in some way.

Also not all extras are available on all specifications of a model. For instance by car has the Sports body kit and suspension but this was only available on the Sports model and not the standard models.

[raskazz]

If this is the case then why don't insurers ask specifically what equipment is fitted to your car when they are providing a quote? All they ask is "has the car beem modified?" this is not the same as asking "what optional extras have been fitted". If the car is the same as when it came out of the factory the answer has to be no regardless of which optional extras are fitted.

Er, they do. Examples:

Confused.com:
"What are modifications?
These are any changes or factory-fitted optional extras which have been added to the vehicle and is not part of the standard vehicle specification. This would include such things as: alloy wheels / spoilers / engine modifications."

Admiral:

"Modifications Please enter if your car is modified.

A modification is any change to the car away from the manufacturer's standard specification including optional extras, such as alloy wheels, body styling kits and exhaust/carburettor upgrades.

If you are uncertain whether your car is modified or not, please check with your local garage."

[raskazz]

I thought they only wanted to know about the things that may make your car stand out from the crowd and make your car more desirable to a thief e.g. alloys,spoiler etc

I have some non-standard things on my Touran (park assist, heated seats etc) but I doubt they would make this car more attractive for a thief.

No, this is not the case at all. For example, the car could have been chipped and had other changes to the engine that boost performance - none of which would be visible to the naked eye - substantially increasing the performance of the car and therefore also the risk.

[pulliptears]

The other pitfall is this...

We bought our car direct from dealer, but at the time after paying out £12k for it the cost of the alloys that were an optional extra was just too much.

6 months later we had saved and bought the factory standard alloys. Tesco insurance wanted an additional £80 for this pleasure. I called them and got a quote on our car, from new with alloys and was surprised to find it was exactly the same as the quote without them. I took this up with Tesco's who basically said "Tough, your car is now more of a risk" but they couldnt explain why it was more of a risk when I put the alloys on than the dealer...

In the end I politely told Tesco's where they could stick their policy and transferred over to another Insurer, who was happy that factory standard alloys should not bump up a premium.

Tesco's loss, been insuring with them for years on 2 cars, plus inlaws and other family, none of whom will use them again.

[leehal]

No, this is not the case at all. For example, the car could have been chipped and had other changes to the engine that boost performance - none of which would be visible to the naked eye - substantially increasing the performance of the car and therefore also the risk.

I was talking about factory fitted options and the cars increased chances of theft.

An engine modification is not likely to make a car more desirable to a thief that is passing the car on the street.

I was aware of having to declare engine modifications, having owned to chipped cars in the past.

[JimmyTheWig]

Er, they do. Examples:


Confused.com:"What are modifications?

These are any changes or factory-fitted optional extras which have been added to the vehicle and is not part of the standard vehicle specification. This would include such things as: alloy wheels / spoilers / engine modifications."

Admiral:

"ModificationsPlease enter if your car is modified.


A modification is any change to the car away from the manufacturer's standard specification including optional extras, such as alloy wheels, body styling kits and exhaust/carburettor upgrades.


If you are uncertain whether your car is modified or not, please check with your local garage."


I still don't really get how you're supposed to know what's a modification and what's standard.
You can't possibly know the standard options on every car on the market.
Do they really expect you to take a car to a garage to ask them what has been modified from the standard on your car? And they are suggesting that everyone does this every time they buy a second hand car?

Metallic paint is normally an extra (or certainly always used to be). Does that need declaring? Most cars are metallic these days, so do most people have to tick the box?

I totally accept that if you don't say it has alloy wheels and the standard didn't have alloy wheels that if the car gets written off they don't pay out for the alloy wheels - i.e. you only get what the "standard" car would have been worth.
Would the issue in this case have arisen if the OP didn't chalenge the valuation?

[raskazz]

It might be stating the obvious, but if you don't know the answer to a question you shouldn't answer it - especially when warnings are given at the quotation and incpetion stage that inaccurate answers can potentially invalidate cover.

So when someone is asked if their car has been modified they shouldn't say 'no' unless they know it's the correct answer. If they are unsure they can check. Surely that's not too much to expect?

Futhermore, to return to the OP's situation, the insurer is taking fair steps to resolve the issue - they are only asking for the right amount of premium to be paid, they are not rejecting the claim.

Yes it would have arisen if the OP hadn't challenged the valuation.

It is not the case that omitting modifications should simply be dealt with by not paying for them in the settlement - because the presence of the modifications affects the risk of damage occurring in the first place and the risk of third party liability, not just the amount of a total loss settlement.

[leehal]

An extra £189 for not declaring alloys seems steep to me, can the OP state what the original premium was ?

[raskazz]

An extra £189 for not declaring alloys seems steep to me, can the OP state what the original premium was ?

Doesn't seem steep to me. If you read the OP's post the policy was covering a relatively young driver (25) who has only held a full licence for 10 months. Often alloys can add up to add up to 10-15% loading to a premium.

[JimmyTheWig]

It might be stating the obvious, but if you don't know the answer to a question you shouldn't answer it - especially when warnings are given at the quotation and incpetion stage that inaccurate answers can potentially invalidate cover.

So when someone is asked if their car has been modified they shouldn't say 'no' unless they know it's the correct answer. If they are unsure they can check. Surely that's not too much to expect?
I agree to some extent. But I still have a problem with it.
You see I can't understand how _anyone_ when buying _any_ second hand car with, for example, alloy wheels and metallic paint would know if these were standard or not.
Admittedly I know very little about cars and so maybe I'm in the minority.

So thinking about it further, I guess my "anyone" in the sentance is slightly harsh. My father-in-law probably would, but he deals with different cars every day with his job as a mechanic. And, for example, an MR2 enthusiast might know the exact specification of each model and would know if theres was different. So probably best to replace my "anyone" with "the average man in the street".

I'm going to show my lack of knowledge and admit that I don't even know if our current car has alloy wheels, let alone whether they are standard or not! But in that I probably am in the minority.


Futhermore, to return to the OP's situation, the insurer is taking fair steps to resolve the issue - they are only asking for the right amount of premium to be paid, they are not rejecting the claim.
Yes, I wouldn't have a problem with them doing that to me. But it's been suggested in other comments on this thread that other insurance companies may have rejected the claim outright.

[raskazz]

Yes, I wouldn't have a problem with them doing that to me. But it's been suggested in other comments on this thread that other insurance companies may have rejected the claim outright.

Yes, that can be the case, however there are extensive FSA rules about claims handling and a lot of FOS guidance on how these issues should be handled. This is quite an interesting FOS article on the matter that I'd recommend:

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/27/27-ins-nondisclosure.htm

Despite the long-held view of insurers as miserly types who get kicks from rejecting claims, an outright repudiation for non-disclosure of modifications is actually rare and is usually only taken in cases where the insured has knowingly lied about the spec of the car or where the car is so heavily modified that the insurer would not have accepted the business at any price had it known about the modifications.

[leehal]

Doesn't seem steep to me. If you read the OP's post the policy was covering a relatively young driver (25) who has only held a full licence for 10 months. Often alloys can add up to add up to 10-15% loading to a premium.

Working on that assumption the insurance would be around £1900, what would be the point of paying more for fully comp insurance than the car was worth ?

[raskazz]

Working on that assumption the insurance would be around £1900, what would be the point of paying more for insurance than the car was worth ?

Because you are not only insuring the car, you are insuring against liability to third-parties (which is, incidentally, by a large margin the main risk associated with inexperienced drviers). For example, if the driver maims a third party, leaving them in need of round-the-clock care for the rest of their life, you are looking at a claim settlement running into millions of pounds. IIRC Fortis had to pay out over £30 million for the Selby rail crash.

[JimmyTheWig]

Yes, that can be the case, however there are extensive FSA rules about claims handling and a lot of FOS guidance on how these issues should be handled. This is quite an interesting FOS article on the matter that I'd recommend:

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/27/27-ins-nondisclosure.htm

Despite the long-held view of insurers as miserly types who get kicks from rejecting claims, an outright repudiation for non-disclosure of modifications is actually rare and is usually only taken in cases where the insured has knowingly lied about the spec of the car or where the car is so heavily modified that the insurer would not have accepted the business at any price had it known about the modifications.
I feel much happier, now. The link is basically saying "common sense prevails".

I particularly liked the following sentances from the link...
We may consider whether the firm gave any warning about the consequences of giving false or incomplete information, and how clear such a warning was.
We may also look at the degree to which the policyholder should have been aware of the information he or she was asked to provide

[Wig]

OP was your daughter hit or did she hit someone? If the former why is it going through your insurance if she is not at fault?
Because that is the way comprehensive insurance works, you pay the extra for peace of mind that you only have to deal with your insurer & that your insurer will pay out irrespective of blame.

[Wig]

OP,
Probably too late now, but someone earlier on in the thread made a good point, the car with alloys is worth more than the book price, so the offer made should have increased accordingly.

[Dan29]

No, optional extras are still classed as modifications

Doesn't this make it impossible for owners of cars fitted with optional extras to use insurance price comparison sites and/or cashback sites when buying insurance?

[raskazz]

Doesn't this make it impossible for owners of cars fitted with optional extras to use insurance price comparison sites and/or cashback sites when buying insurance?

No, it just means they have to answer the questions accurately and honestly.

[Wig]

No, it just means they have to answer the questions accurately and honestly.
Well they can theoretically "use" the websites, but they will not be able to take out online insurance, because most if not all insurers require you to phone up for a quote if you tick the box saying you have had modifications.

[Dan29]

Well they can theoretically "use" the websites, but they will not be able to take out online insurance, because most if not all insurers require you to phone up for a quote if you tick the box saying you have had modifications.

Exactly, so no cashback, and no accurate way of comparing prices as different insurers probably won't add the same amount to the premium.

This must affect a large number of people who have no idea about it; I certainly didn't when I was insuring a car that (like many sports/luxury cars) is hardly ever ordered in standard spec. In fact it's not even just expensive cars - the new Fiat 500 has more than half a million option combinations and I bet most of them aren't declared when owners take out insurance!